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Topic: Old BFL buyers vs new asicminer prices (Read 5535 times)

full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
Bitcoin Enthusiast
May 28, 2014, 12:36:56 PM
Umm, which pool? The last time I checked (September) their mining software worked with Eclipse and Eligius pools. Has that changed?

BFL purchased Eclipse from Josh quite some time ago.

Oh, okay. I tried that pool with EasyMiner when I got my first 60 GH/s ASIC. Eclipse throttled it at 7 GH/s.

Too funny. Wink
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
Umm, which pool? The last time I checked (September) their mining software worked with Eclipse and Eligius pools. Has that changed?

BFL purchased Eclipse from Josh quite some time ago.
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
Bitcoin Enthusiast

I suppose it needs it's own thread as I suggested since it is quite valuable information about the current market vs. the past market purchases. That should play into your decision when making any NEW PURCHASES like the BFL Monarch... ergo this is maybe a good place to point out the failures of BFL delivery. Would it not? To protect people possibly making the wrong choice when purchasing? Or should we all ignore this analysis?

Haven't we analyzed this to death?  There are dozens of threads about this very topic.  Is it really necessary to ruin another thread with the same stuff we've been reading for months?  I personally want to hear what others have to say about the Monarch.  Nothing else.
Such as...?

Make an example

It is not even a prototype correct? No gerbers? No BOM even? Just a drawing... what more can you say about it? Other than taking specifications they claim it will have and doing an analysis and then determining whether or not it is a good buy correct?

Given what Death is saying in a comparison of the Asicminer Blades vs. 2012 BFL Products that have yet to ship... you might want to really rethink whether or not the Monarch has any value other than a thought experiment into a PCIe miner, seems to be hard to say anymore than that right? Forgive me but doesn't BFL have a forum for all this information. Why would anyone come here to get updated info on this product should you not go to the source?

Almost what now 9 months later and the Monarch is still a thought experiment.

Mmm... As I recall, they were supposed to ship in December. They were taking pre-orders in August or September--right around the same time I ordered by BabyJet from HashFast.

After waiting 11 months for my BFL ASICs, I will never buy from BFL, again.

They were supposed to ship every month since December but basically and more likely mined with the hardware and is sitting on it. Owning a pool of their own allows them to pull that off to some degree.

Umm, which pool? The last time I checked (September) their mining software worked with Eclipse and Eligius pools. Has that changed?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500

I suppose it needs it's own thread as I suggested since it is quite valuable information about the current market vs. the past market purchases. That should play into your decision when making any NEW PURCHASES like the BFL Monarch... ergo this is maybe a good place to point out the failures of BFL delivery. Would it not? To protect people possibly making the wrong choice when purchasing? Or should we all ignore this analysis?

Haven't we analyzed this to death?  There are dozens of threads about this very topic.  Is it really necessary to ruin another thread with the same stuff we've been reading for months?  I personally want to hear what others have to say about the Monarch.  Nothing else.
Such as...?

Make an example

It is not even a prototype correct? No gerbers? No BOM even? Just a drawing... what more can you say about it? Other than taking specifications they claim it will have and doing an analysis and then determining whether or not it is a good buy correct?

Given what Death is saying in a comparison of the Asicminer Blades vs. 2012 BFL Products that have yet to ship... you might want to really rethink whether or not the Monarch has any value other than a thought experiment into a PCIe miner, seems to be hard to say anymore than that right? Forgive me but doesn't BFL have a forum for all this information. Why would anyone come here to get updated info on this product should you not go to the source?

Almost what now 9 months later and the Monarch is still a thought experiment.

Mmm... As I recall, they were supposed to ship in December. They were taking pre-orders in August or September--right around the same time I ordered by BabyJet from HashFast.

After waiting 11 months for my BFL ASICs, I will never buy from BFL, again.

They were supposed to ship every month since December but basically and more likely mined with the hardware and is sitting on it. Owning a pool of their own allows them to pull that off to some degree.
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
Bitcoin Enthusiast

I suppose it needs it's own thread as I suggested since it is quite valuable information about the current market vs. the past market purchases. That should play into your decision when making any NEW PURCHASES like the BFL Monarch... ergo this is maybe a good place to point out the failures of BFL delivery. Would it not? To protect people possibly making the wrong choice when purchasing? Or should we all ignore this analysis?

Haven't we analyzed this to death?  There are dozens of threads about this very topic.  Is it really necessary to ruin another thread with the same stuff we've been reading for months?  I personally want to hear what others have to say about the Monarch.  Nothing else.
Such as...?

Make an example

It is not even a prototype correct? No gerbers? No BOM even? Just a drawing... what more can you say about it? Other than taking specifications they claim it will have and doing an analysis and then determining whether or not it is a good buy correct?

Given what Death is saying in a comparison of the Asicminer Blades vs. 2012 BFL Products that have yet to ship... you might want to really rethink whether or not the Monarch has any value other than a thought experiment into a PCIe miner, seems to be hard to say anymore than that right? Forgive me but doesn't BFL have a forum for all this information. Why would anyone come here to get updated info on this product should you not go to the source?

Almost what now 9 months later and the Monarch is still a thought experiment.

Mmm... As I recall, they were supposed to ship in December. They were taking pre-orders in August or September--right around the same time I ordered by BabyJet from HashFast.

After waiting 11 months for my BFL ASICs, I will never buy from BFL, again.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000

I suppose it needs it's own thread as I suggested since it is quite valuable information about the current market vs. the past market purchases. That should play into your decision when making any NEW PURCHASES like the BFL Monarch... ergo this is maybe a good place to point out the failures of BFL delivery. Would it not? To protect people possibly making the wrong choice when purchasing? Or should we all ignore this analysis?

Haven't we analyzed this to death?  There are dozens of threads about this very topic.  Is it really necessary to ruin another thread with the same stuff we've been reading for months?  I personally want to hear what others have to say about the Monarch.  Nothing else.
Such as...?

Make an example

It is not even a prototype correct? No gerbers? No BOM even? Just a drawing... what more can you say about it? Other than taking specifications they claim it will have and doing an analysis and then determining whether or not it is a good buy correct?

Given what Death is saying in a comparison of the Asicminer Blades vs. 2012 BFL Products that have yet to ship... you might want to really rethink whether or not the Monarch has any value other than a thought experiment into a PCIe miner, seems to be hard to say anymore than that right? Forgive me but doesn't BFL have a forum for all this information. Why would anyone come here to get updated info on this product should you not go to the source?

Almost what now 9 months later and the Monarch is still a thought experiment.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Has history just repeated itself?

Bitmain and Spondoolies Tech shipping off the shelf and BFL no Monarch to be seen anywhere. Look back and read the Inaba and BCP defense... sound familiar?

GUT PUNCH.


hero member
Activity: 981
Merit: 500
DIV - Your "Virtual Life" Secured and Decentralize
August 31, 2013, 03:09:52 AM
Quote
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each

Soooo....

Purchase a widget that costs $20 and will generate $800 or
Purchase a widget that costs $2000 and will generate $1000.

Really?

Signed,
An owner of both BFL and AM hardware

No one said what the starting value of the BTC was... that 10BTC was the same for both comments, not 20 vs 2000.
Maybe the assumption was that they instead held the bitcoins and would have had whatever 10BTC was at the final value?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
August 30, 2013, 01:43:18 PM
Quote
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each

Soooo....

Purchase a widget that costs $20 and will generate $800 or
Purchase a widget that costs $2000 and will generate $1000.

Really?

Signed,
An owner of both BFL and AM hardware

No one said what the starting value of the BTC was... that 10BTC was the same for both comments, not 20 vs 2000.
sr. member
Activity: 333
Merit: 250
August 30, 2013, 01:41:03 PM
Quote
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each

Soooo....

Purchase a widget that costs $20 and will generate $800 or
Purchase a widget that costs $2000 and will generate $1000.

Really?

Signed,
An owner of both BFL and AM hardware






hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
August 30, 2013, 01:37:55 PM
While the numbers are exaggerated, a widget that costs a small amount compared to what it would bring in has already been created.  It's called an ASIC.  At the time pre-orders were taken, the smallest unit cost less than 30BTC, and if ONLY 1 was made and there was NO competition, it would have brought in more than 400BTC in 12 months.  Therein lies the rub... there will be competition and no one will make just one.
Thus everyone projected how much competition BFL would have between October of 2012 and January of 2013. The proejction was zero, they were the only vendor planning to ship. Then it was a simple matter of when you ordered your BFL product as to when you would get it.  Instead, BFL was 3rd (out of 3) to deliver. Both ASICMiner and Avalon batch 1 deployed first, thus reaping large rewards.

If we step into fantasy world though, we now have every unit capable of making such incredible returns... the ~4600 BTC for every mini-rig becomes 61,333.  The network increase since those preorders is now at over 600TH.  That's 400 minirigs.  That would mean 24,533,200 BTC would have been produced in a single year and if we went to Inaba's farcical numbers that would be well over 72million.  In less than 4 months at todays rate the entire BTC supply would have been exhausted.
No, most people here realize that mining is a zero sum game and that they are competing with all other miners. There are lots of noobs drawn in by the April bubble who probably can't find their ass with both hands. I am sure they have no idea about how mining works, but thankfully most of them are not on these forums.

THIS is the problem with your "I'd take the 400 BTC!" and the reason why the difficulty is so high today... since EVERYONE wanted the 400 BTC... no one can have it.
Only early adopters have a shot at it, thus all of BFL land went from the catbird seat to negative return. Once the hash rate reaches equilibrium, you cannot generate much more than the worth of the device. There are still some efficiencies to be found with over/under clocking etc.
Very true, they did assess the competition, but they failed to assess the quantity ordered.  Most of the people seem to think it'd be just like the B1 Avalons and they'd have had BTC raining down on them. 
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
August 30, 2013, 10:34:35 AM
If you are MAD at BFL, then...

 Dude, cut this shit out already. It's juvenile behavior. Be better than that.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
August 30, 2013, 10:28:30 AM
#99
While the numbers are exaggerated, a widget that costs a small amount compared to what it would bring in has already been created.  It's called an ASIC.  At the time pre-orders were taken, the smallest unit cost less than 30BTC, and if ONLY 1 was made and there was NO competition, it would have brought in more than 400BTC in 12 months.  Therein lies the rub... there will be competition and no one will make just one.
Thus everyone projected how much competition BFL would have between October of 2012 and January of 2013. The proejction was zero, they were the only vendor planning to ship. Then it was a simple matter of when you ordered your BFL product as to when you would get it.  Instead, BFL was 3rd (out of 3) to deliver. Both ASICMiner and Avalon batch 1 deployed first, thus reaping large rewards.

If we step into fantasy world though, we now have every unit capable of making such incredible returns... the ~4600 BTC for every mini-rig becomes 61,333.  The network increase since those preorders is now at over 600TH.  That's 400 minirigs.  That would mean 24,533,200 BTC would have been produced in a single year and if we went to Inaba's farcical numbers that would be well over 72million.  In less than 4 months at todays rate the entire BTC supply would have been exhausted.
No, most people here realize that mining is a zero sum game and that they are competing with all other miners. There are lots of noobs drawn in by the April bubble who probably can't find their ass with both hands. I am sure they have no idea about how mining works, but thankfully most of them are not on these forums.

THIS is the problem with your "I'd take the 400 BTC!" and the reason why the difficulty is so high today... since EVERYONE wanted the 400 BTC... no one can have it.
Only early adopters have a shot at it, thus all of BFL land went from the catbird seat to negative return. Once the hash rate reaches equilibrium, you cannot generate much more than the worth of the device. There are still some efficiencies to be found with over/under clocking etc.
hero member
Activity: 1162
Merit: 500
August 30, 2013, 07:25:42 AM
#98
K9 once again demonstrates his inability ...

It's inabaility. i-na-ba-i-li-ty.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Inaba

 Wink
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
August 30, 2013, 06:42:55 AM
#97
This is a completely disingenuous market that is predicated on completely ludicrous assumptions.  Lets look at a few of them, but this list is by no means comprehensive:
Mining has different market dynamics than you'd like to make people believe. In mining the product is money or a money substitute itself. Thus miners are generally interested in increasing their purchasing power within the money system itself.

Put another way: A miner becomes by definition the issuer of the currency and benefits from the ongoing inflation because they get the new money first before the market can price in the inflation or the mining costs are generally lower than the mining revenue. He thus operates CONDITIONAL on the assumption that the purchasing power of the mined asset increases, stays the same or inflates slower than the expected incoming cash flow. If I would expect the mined asset price to fall, I would NOT buy hardware in the first place, but hedge my asset position by selling them for something else.

Thus, mining investments are similar to doubling down on an appreciation of the mined asset. The miner accepts a certain degree of risk and capital expenditure for the prospect of getting that capital back. If I expect the capital expenditure to outsize the mining revenue, I wouldn't do the investment in the first place. That simply doesn't make any economic sense.

You clearly do not understand the motivations of the vast majority of miners, then.  This may be your way of thinking, but I assure you beyond any shadow of a doubt, most miners are in it to make a profit in USD (or their local currency) not to "increase their purchasing power within the money system itself."  Most miners couldn't give a shit about how much BTC it makes in the end, they just want to know how much USD (or local currency) it makes.

Once again, I challenge you:

Ask an average miner which they'd rather do:

Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each

Invariably, the answer will be the second option, even though that person could have increased their BTC holdings by 40x!  Very few people want BTC for BTC sake, they want BTC for what value it provides in their local currency.  Again, you may be different, but you are in a very tiny, miniscule minority.


Actually, anyone who takes the 10 BTC widget that generates 5 BTC valued at $200 each is a short sighted fucking moron, chasing short term gains over long term advantage. Edit: not necessarily a moron, the possibility exists that their strategy is short term gains on purpose.  To each their own.
Simply put:
5 BTC valued at $200 each = $1000, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they only gain $5 of value, and has a LOT of room for downward price movement.
400 BTC valued at $200 each = $800, $200 less at the time of calculation, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they gain $400 of value, and very little room for downward price movement.

You may well be right, and most miners may well choose the 5 BTC/$200 value, but they're fucking retarded likely cheating themselves if they do.
The 400 BTC/$2 value has far more upside potential and reward, and less downside risk.  It's the obvious choice if profit is the motivator.
While the numbers are exaggerated, a widget that costs a small amount compared to what it would bring in has already been created.  It's called an ASIC.  At the time pre-orders were taken, the smallest unit cost less than 30BTC, and if ONLY 1 was made and there was NO competition, it would have brought in more than 400BTC in 12 months.  Therein lies the rub... there will be competition and no one will make just one.

If we step into fantasy world though, we now have every unit capable of making such incredible returns... the ~4600 BTC for every mini-rig becomes 61,333.  The network increase since those preorders is now at over 600TH.  That's 400 minirigs.  That would mean 24,533,200 BTC would have been produced in a single year and if we went to Inaba's farcical numbers that would be well over 72million.  In less than 4 months at todays rate the entire BTC supply would have been exhausted.

THIS is the problem with your "I'd take the 400 BTC!" and the reason why the difficulty is so high today... since EVERYONE wanted the 400 BTC... no one can have it.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
August 30, 2013, 01:50:23 AM
#96
It's the obvious choice if profit is the motivator.

You would think right?
member
Activity: 82
Merit: 10
August 29, 2013, 10:31:48 PM
#95
This is a completely disingenuous market that is predicated on completely ludicrous assumptions.  Lets look at a few of them, but this list is by no means comprehensive:
Mining has different market dynamics than you'd like to make people believe. In mining the product is money or a money substitute itself. Thus miners are generally interested in increasing their purchasing power within the money system itself.

Put another way: A miner becomes by definition the issuer of the currency and benefits from the ongoing inflation because they get the new money first before the market can price in the inflation or the mining costs are generally lower than the mining revenue. He thus operates CONDITIONAL on the assumption that the purchasing power of the mined asset increases, stays the same or inflates slower than the expected incoming cash flow. If I would expect the mined asset price to fall, I would NOT buy hardware in the first place, but hedge my asset position by selling them for something else.

Thus, mining investments are similar to doubling down on an appreciation of the mined asset. The miner accepts a certain degree of risk and capital expenditure for the prospect of getting that capital back. If I expect the capital expenditure to outsize the mining revenue, I wouldn't do the investment in the first place. That simply doesn't make any economic sense.

You clearly do not understand the motivations of the vast majority of miners, then.  This may be your way of thinking, but I assure you beyond any shadow of a doubt, most miners are in it to make a profit in USD (or their local currency) not to "increase their purchasing power within the money system itself."  Most miners couldn't give a shit about how much BTC it makes in the end, they just want to know how much USD (or local currency) it makes.

Once again, I challenge you:

Ask an average miner which they'd rather do:

Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each

Invariably, the answer will be the second option, even though that person could have increased their BTC holdings by 40x!  Very few people want BTC for BTC sake, they want BTC for what value it provides in their local currency.  Again, you may be different, but you are in a very tiny, miniscule minority.


Actually, anyone who takes the 10 BTC widget that generates 5 BTC valued at $200 each is a short sighted fucking moron, chasing short term gains over long term advantage. Edit: not necessarily a moron, the possibility exists that their strategy is short term gains on purpose.  To each their own.
Simply put:
5 BTC valued at $200 each = $1000, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they only gain $5 of value, and has a LOT of room for downward price movement.
400 BTC valued at $200 each = $800, $200 less at the time of calculation, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they gain $400 of value, and very little room for downward price movement.

You may well be right, and most miners may well choose the 5 BTC/$200 value, but they're fucking retarded likely cheating themselves if they do.
The 400 BTC/$2 value has far more upside potential and reward, and less downside risk.  It's the obvious choice if profit is the motivator.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
August 29, 2013, 10:17:16 PM
#94
Effectively, yes.
 He's also ACTUALLY said that we're all "monumental assholes", on top of the implication we are all complete idiots, so it's hard to take him as someone who has a healthy rooting in reality.

No, it's quite clear that he has a firm grip on it to me.

Actually I agree with Yecchi ...He has a firm Pathological view of the world & Humans....
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
August 29, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
#93
Effectively, yes.
 He's also ACTUALLY said that we're all "monumental assholes", on top of the implication we are all complete idiots, so it's hard to take him as someone who has a healthy rooting in reality.

No, it's quite clear that he has a firm grip on it to me.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
August 29, 2013, 09:34:13 PM
#92
Heh, what a tool.

 Are you completely incapable of having discourse without resorting to insults when a counterpoint does not fit your narrative ?

 There is no need for that final snipe.

 Evolve, Josh.

To be fair, Josh has to argue that receiving less than you paid is good, and that waiting a really long time for your stuff is also good.
Don't give him too hard a time, it is a very difficult position to defend.
You and I had a similar discussion a while back, so let me ask again the question (slightly modified) you never answered:  Can you show that the BTC you had last June and every BTC you earned from then until now was never spent, or IF spent, that you ended up with more BTC from having spent it?

Actually, yes I could. However, I only need to show the opportunity cost of turning over my BTC to another party. That third party gets the chance to benefit from the rise in BTC exchange rate. I have zero chance to benefit from an exchange rate rise if I do not have my BTC. Whoever took my BTC has a higher than zero chance, therefore they are in a better position to capitalize on any rise in exchange rates.

We don't need to talk about exchange rates though. We can just take Josh's example: Give me 400 BTC now (worth $52,000) and I will promise you 200 BTC at some point in the future such that the USD value of that 200 BTC is more than $70,000. In other words, give me $52,000 of BTC now, and I will give you $70,000 of BTC back at some point in the future if the exchange rate goes above $350/BTC.
While I understand the economics involved, I was just asking a straight line question which you answered, and I commend you for your forebearance.  The patience needed is not something everyone has.
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