PAJKA.BOND - 100% PPS 15Mhash mining bond - page 8.

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 05:10:39 PM

Since there's no discussion of a game theory problem here, I have no idea what you mean by the asset prices reaching their Nash equilibrium unless you're referring to the panic-selling bond-substitution game I was talking about earlier. The market can clear at a regular equilibrium, if that's what you mean...

EDIT: And your conjectures again assume a rational market (which is fine because that assumption is oftentimes all we ever have to work with)

I made a 5 BTC lose in PAJKA bond panic selling...you may think I am stupid to selling my assets at this low price...but All I want to convince here is PMB is not right assets right now...only if you can prove difficulty will maintain below increase 10% each 12 days....I think this only possible BTC price drop drop drop.....this what I do not want to see...I am bullish on BTC price....if BTC price decrease I do not care the dividend pay by this Bond...I made lose anyway....

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 04:54:48 PM

Looks like I've got my foot in my mouth. I had this confused with JAH on BitFunder, which (God forbid I put my foot in my mouth again) is not dependent on the issuer's receiving the units.

My main point was to address the 200x coupon buyback clause - thanks for correcting me on this, I should've double-checked my facts before posting, sorry!

Lets me explain it, since new ASIC are ahead to hitting the market...He do not actually know about exactly difficulty will increase, he just want to betting on it...All ASIC devices are planned to hitting the market after three months, roughly estimate to avalon chips ,KNC and BFL(if they dilivery)
after three months we will know who wins the betting...therefore, that this could be a safe line for him. if his estimation is wrong , he only lose those dividends, if he made right perception, then He can hold the assets for almost free in the future...

We can't regulate market for this type of asset, because its return is forecast-able.
We can't rely on some fools to buying it, when there are better substitution.

jjdub7

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Since there's no discussion of a game theory problem here, I have no idea what you mean by the asset prices reaching their Nash equilibrium unless you're referring to the panic-selling bond-substitution game I was talking about earlier. The market can clear at a regular equilibrium, if that's what you mean...

EDIT: And your conjectures again assume a rational market (which is fine because that assumption is oftentimes all we ever have to work with)

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 04:54:48 PM

Looks like I've got my foot in my mouth. I had this confused with JAH on BitFunder, which (God forbid I put my foot in my mouth again) is not dependent on the issuer's receiving the units.

My main point was to address the 200x coupon buyback clause - thanks for correcting me on this, I should've double-checked my facts before posting, sorry!

No worry....I bought a lot of TAT.V and sold all it above the price I bought.....I do not suggest anyone holding those PMB for long-time...it only can be sold out without loss when they are the best deal in the market......TAT is play a game here....which I have posted in above thread....
Long-term: once more people able to build ASICs....the price of ASIC will drop and difficulty will rise...util it reach its nash-equilibrium.
not like other staff, during the competition of those ASIC's manufactures, that the price of ASIC will drop and in the same time the efficiency will increase...
If any PMB does't specific when will they buying back the bond...it just not reason for me to hold it...I hope you can understand my point and assumption here...

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: Kyune on June 07, 2013, 04:51:42 PM

Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 04:35:25 PM

And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.

I don't quite follow this statement. From the OP:

Quote

The bonds will be upgraded for free to 15Mhash/s per bond when ordered ASICs are delivered to us.

What is the distinction you are trying to draw?

if BFL delivery his order...he will upgrade to this hashrate...but whether BFL delivery or not ? how could we know??

jjdub7

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Looks like I've got my foot in my mouth. I had this confused with JAH on BitFunder, which (God forbid I put my foot in my mouth again) is not dependent on the issuer's receiving the units.

My main point was to address the 200x coupon buyback clause - thanks for correcting me on this, I should've double-checked my facts before posting, sorry!

Kyune

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Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 04:35:25 PM

And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.

I don't quite follow this statement. From the OP:

Quote

The bonds will be upgraded for free to 15Mhash/s per bond when ordered ASICs are delivered to us.

What is the distinction you are trying to draw?

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 04:35:25 PM

And one more thing...the 'buyback at 200x dividend' clause in TAT's contract is EXTREMELY dangerous for investors looking to pick up PMB's. That right there is exactly why I'm not buying into it...when difficulty rises high enough, TAT will be perfectly allowed to re-purchase the bonds at a fraction of the principal, leaving investors with massive losses.

EDIT: If you consider that 3 Mh/s of TAT's bonds would cost 0.021 BTC...once the upgrade for PAJKA is implemented and the hashing power rises to 15 Mh/s, this would cost 0.105 BTC for the equivalent hashing power in TAT bonds. And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.

You really hope BFL will delivery? Huh

?? when the BFL really delivered ,Some one may start selling machine at 500/GH at 2000 USD...
Also before I made selling out I was ask the issuer of PAJKA bond, ask him to upgrade our hashrate in order to link up with AM, before BFL really shipped...I think he reject me , it can be no doubt even this small request has been refused..You really think this guy will order another ASIC device and upgrade your hashrate??
remember, whether BFL delivery or not, how can you know? Huh

?not like ASICMINER you can check the hashrate online...
People are selfish, especially if the cost to collusion or cheating others is insignificant.

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: jjdub7 on June 07, 2013, 04:23:13 PM

And regardless, even if the difficulty is sky-high, the bond still pays a better interest rate than keeping BTC in cold storage...

I have the opportunity to investing my fund into AM....it is much better performance than a bond.
I just sold out all Pajka contracts...
A good news for you here....is if PAJKA want to attracting new investors...it need to drop its price below 0.021...because TAT.V just been approved on BTCT.... if anything right or wrong ,we will see in the future... Again if you are the lender here, you know you hold a essay which interest will decrease and decrease ,what will you do Huh

I think the answer is clear, you will hold it .since it cost you less in the future..am I right?
if BTC price continue increase this mean the demand for mining will increase= difficulty increase..Since TAT.V there ,better bond there..for those poor PAJKA bond's contracts holder, what they can do? Huh

receiving less and less, never get their BTC back in full.....

jjdub7

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And one more thing...the 'buyback at 200x dividend' clause in TAT's contract is EXTREMELY dangerous for investors looking to pick up PMB's. That right there is exactly why I'm not buying into it...when difficulty rises high enough, TAT will be perfectly allowed to re-purchase the bonds at a fraction of the principal, leaving investors with massive losses.

EDIT: If you consider that 3 Mh/s of TAT's bonds would cost 0.021 BTC...once the upgrade for PAJKA is implemented and the hashing power rises to 15 Mh/s, this would cost 0.105 BTC for the equivalent hashing power in TAT bonds. ~~And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.~~ This was wrong, sorry. The issuer's upgrade is dependent on receiving BFL hardware.

jjdub7

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And regardless, even if the difficulty is sky-high, the bond still pays a better interest rate than keeping BTC in cold storage...

jjdub7

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You can do all the math you want, but without a fundamental understanding of the economic principles behind a bond, you're just playing with pretty numbers. An increase in difficulty in the PMB market is analogous to a shift in the yield curve of treasuries. Back in the day, treasuries often paid much higher yields (at times around 5-7%), but as the economy became more developed and risk abated, these yields were adjusted downward across the maturity spectrum to compensate. So yes, your coupon payments will decrease but this isn't because the asset is performing poorly, but rather because its gotten harder for everyone to mine. The 15-day average 'face value' of the bond is guaranteed by the issuer, so it has intrinsic value there to begin with. The bond is still worth its value. I've already explained why TAT's investment is more risky and why this could and should result in a price differential, so I don't know why we still have a problem here...

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 04:11:11 PM

Quote from: wo0x on June 07, 2013, 03:56:30 PM

TAT, you found a big fan in me Grin

you just got 700BTC from the shareholders of the VIRTUALMINE. given, diffuculty won't raise, you have thereby enough money to pay them 180 days. what a pitty, that afterwards, you will have to throw in money each day (4btc each day, am i right?)

but hey ... what if difficulty might skyrocket and break through the magic petahash frontline? that might mean, that you will have to pay them 0.36 each day (alltogether, not each), or even less.

we are going to converge the daily income for 1MHs asymtotically to satoshis. You will pay them hundreds of years and still have >> 100 BTC profit.

That's such a good idea, that makes me jealous not having it on my own first Cool

If you have left over some coins after buying more AM shares, go to your holidays--they're well-deserved

_{EDIT: I see, todays total divident payout was around 3.25, making it work for 233 days, if it stayed constant.}

I am out at 0.0072499, made some profit....still nice investment right now...but for long time...we should see panic selling of those assets...so far the only thing can be bought for is AM....nothing else...

Another man noticed the trap behind those PMB......I hope I am over worry about the rinsing of difficulty....

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: furuknap on June 07, 2013, 02:26:59 PM

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:21:36 PM

So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...

You are wrong on so many counts that it would take far too much time to set you straight. Like I've said before, you do your math and if you're confident in that, you act on it.

Here's a hint, though... Nobody is buying PAJKA for its 3mhs.

Now please heed by advice and take some time away to study the very dangerous and costly game you are playing. I won't be entertaining your nonsense FUD anymore. You've been proven wrong in virtually every statement you've made. There's no need for anyone to listen to you.

.b

It is ok..you can holding PAJKA,as I said I trust my perception.even my perception is wrong,then the math do not lie..ten years for recovery my initial investment ,just too long time..I can't wait for ten years!may be you can.

furuknap

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Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:21:36 PM

So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...

You are wrong on so many counts that it would take far too much time to set you straight. Like I've said before, you do your math and if you're confident in that, you act on it.

Here's a hint, though... Nobody is buying PAJKA for its 3mhs.

Now please heed by advice and take some time away to study the very dangerous and costly game you are playing. I won't be entertaining your nonsense FUD anymore. You've been proven wrong in virtually every statement you've made. There's no need for anyone to listen to you.

.b

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: furuknap on June 07, 2013, 02:18:30 PM

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:15:39 PM

I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

I already have bought a large chunk of your panic sold bonds. I have an investment profile that doesn't lend itself to further exposure right now, though.

.b

Thanks ...this really kind...I hope you will happy with your investment...Time will tell.....

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: furuknap on June 07, 2013, 02:10:37 PM

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:00:35 PM

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:00:35 PM

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...

furuknap

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http://coin.furuknap.net/

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:15:39 PM

I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

I already have bought a large chunk of your panic sold bonds. I have an investment profile that doesn't lend itself to further exposure right now, though.

.b

SOSLOVE868

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Quote from: furuknap on June 07, 2013, 02:10:37 PM

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:00:35 PM

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:00:35 PM

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

I mean the current contract you still hold in your hand at that time in future...if the issuer pays needless dividend to you( not intend to buying back ) and nor body buying your contracts either, what will you do then?? I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

furuknap

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http://coin.furuknap.net/

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:00:35 PM

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on June 07, 2013, 02:00:35 PM

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

Topic: PAJKA.BOND - 100% PPS 15Mhash mining bond - page 8. (Read 24950 times)