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Topic: [Payout Updates] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation - page 45. (Read 156693 times)

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Bitbuy
If you opened a long position at 4.30, your position is closed at 4.30.
If you opened a short position at 5.30, your position is closed at 5.30.

Using this approach, the only loss for customers will be opportunity cost. Sounds reasonable?

Personally I think that how would any other company would decide, simply cancel all orders. But longs will be pissed, at least they should get their balances in BTC if they had them in BTC.

Yep. Sure.

Disclosure notice: This proposal would put me at a ~100 USD loss, compared to closing my long position at current market rate.
But this would be the same outcome as if I had no BTC/USD position and simply sat on my dollars for a month. Ah well.

Expecting Bitcoinica to close positions at the 'most favorable price', sounds unreasonable.
Additionally, closing positions at current market price would certainly wipe out many leveraged shorts.
They would not be happy. They would likely pursue legal action.

Closing positions at (for example) the market price from the day of the hack (with spread or without) seems arbitrary.
Closing  at 4.94 - 4.98 would put me, and others holding long positions, at an unreasonable loss. I would not be happy.

I would not take legal action, but I think it likely that someone with more on the line would want to.

Two separate settlement prices is more complicated, and creates more room for discontent.

I imagine that any other settlement proposal than opening price == closing price makes legal action more likely,
which in turn would put a halt to any hope of timely and reasonable settlements.

What about people with a long since $2? I'm not one of them, but I can image people would be pissed if their long would close at 2$...
member
Activity: 63
Merit: 10
5 - is a fair decision. (I'm a long, several thousand). And I willing to accept any loss of profits (of course a pity . Cry.)

5 is out of the question when we're sitting here a month later staring at 5.90.

Liquidate at 5 and Bitcoinica will be in court for the rest of their lives.

Close all bets, give us our money back.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 502

Zhoutong's opinion was "all short positions can liquidate at 4.94".
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.897877
Quote
Current positions will all be liquidated at a settlement price. We haven't decided the price yet, but my personal estimate is 4.98 / 4.94. (All long positions can liquidate at 4.98 and all short positions can liquidate at 4.94, we pay the spread for you.) All unrealized P/L will be settled in USD. If you don't have sufficient USD balance, we will use your BTC to settle, with the mid-point exchange rate (again, we pay the spread).

I suggested the team to pay spread to customers to make everyone happy. At that time the highest-lowest difference was 4 cents. Now it's 1 dollar. So I'm really not sure how the liquidation will be handled.

I have a proposal for an amicable solution to the liquidation price dispute:

Close all open positions at the exact value they were placed. No loss for open positions.

If you opened a long position at 4.30, your position is closed at 4.30.
If you opened a short position at 5.30, your position is closed at 5.30.

Using this approach, the only loss for customers will be opportunity cost. Sounds reasonable?
Sounds good. But excuse me .. You do not understand how it works. They did not have enough money, that would do so.

5 - is a fair decision. (I'm a long, several thousand). And I willing to accept any loss of profits (of course a pity . Cry.)
legendary
Activity: 1458
Merit: 1006
If you opened a long position at 4.30, your position is closed at 4.30.
If you opened a short position at 5.30, your position is closed at 5.30.

Using this approach, the only loss for customers will be opportunity cost. Sounds reasonable?

Personally I think that how would any other company would decide, simply cancel all orders. But longs will be pissed, at least they should get their balances in BTC if they had them in BTC.

Yep. Sure.

Disclosure notice: This proposal would put me at a ~100 USD loss, compared to closing my long position at current market rate.
But this would be the same outcome as if I had no BTC/USD position and simply sat on my dollars for a month. Ah well.

Expecting Bitcoinica to close positions at the 'most favorable price', sounds unreasonable.
Additionally, closing positions at current market price would certainly wipe out many leveraged shorts.
They would not be happy. They would likely pursue legal action.

Closing positions at (for example) the market price from the day of the hack (with spread or without) seems arbitrary.
Closing  at 4.94 - 4.98 would put me, and others holding long positions, at an unreasonable loss. I would not be happy.

I would not take legal action, but I think it likely that someone with more on the line would want to.

Two separate settlement prices is more complicated, and creates more room for discontent.

I imagine that any other settlement proposal than opening price == closing price makes legal action more likely,
which in turn would put a halt to any hope of timely and reasonable settlements.
member
Activity: 63
Merit: 10
Of course we haven't heard from anyone that's received 50%. There isn't anyone.

What is this new Payment Instructions form on the claim page?
hero member
Activity: 661
Merit: 500
Sorry if I missed this, but I haven't seen anyone post on here that has actually received 50%.  Is this correct?

Genjix - with the password submittable page we did a couple days ago through e-mail, if our password was found, can we assume those are going to be refunded next?



Thanks.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
If you opened a long position at 4.30, your position is closed at 4.30.
If you opened a short position at 5.30, your position is closed at 5.30.

Using this approach, the only loss for customers will be opportunity cost. Sounds reasonable?

Personally I think that how would any other company would decide, simply cancel all orders. But longs will be pissed, at least they should get their balances in BTC if they had them in BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1458
Merit: 1006

Zhoutong's opinion was "all short positions can liquidate at 4.94".
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.897877
Quote
Current positions will all be liquidated at a settlement price. We haven't decided the price yet, but my personal estimate is 4.98 / 4.94. (All long positions can liquidate at 4.98 and all short positions can liquidate at 4.94, we pay the spread for you.) All unrealized P/L will be settled in USD. If you don't have sufficient USD balance, we will use your BTC to settle, with the mid-point exchange rate (again, we pay the spread).

I suggested the team to pay spread to customers to make everyone happy. At that time the highest-lowest difference was 4 cents. Now it's 1 dollar. So I'm really not sure how the liquidation will be handled.

I have a proposal for an amicable solution to the liquidation price dispute:

Close all open positions at the exact value they were placed. No loss for open positions.

If you opened a long position at 4.30, your position is closed at 4.30.
If you opened a short position at 5.30, your position is closed at 5.30.

Using this approach, the only loss for customers will be opportunity cost. Sounds reasonable?
hero member
Activity: 761
Merit: 500
Mine Silent, Mine Deep
Except we already did make some payments for confirmed people.

Ah, of course - the 'round 0' people.

If you have started payments why have you not announced that on the first post of this thread. Seems like relevant info to me.

EDIT1: nevermind - I see that the 1st post has been updated to this effect 30 mins ago :)
EDIT2: Would be great if some of these people that received 50% refunds can confirm in this thread.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
I support paying the initial round of people marked as 'accurate', but the process is not under my control. And I can understand why there is a need for more thorough checking. There is no database, a huge mass of data (much of it useless) and a number of false claims that could push out legitimate claims.

So then how are you verifying anybody at all?  Just people you like, or what?
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1076
"Today we paid another day's worth of lip service, created some interesting new numbers, and did not return one single penny or satoshi to the people that entrusted us with thousands."

Except we already did make some payments for confirmed people.

I support paying the initial round of people marked as 'accurate', but the process is not under my control. And I can understand why there is a need for more thorough checking. There is no database, a huge mass of data (much of it useless) and a number of false claims that could push out legitimate claims.
sr. member
Activity: 574
Merit: 250
So in effect:

"Today we paid another day's worth of lip service, created some interesting new numbers, and did not return one single penny or satoshi to the people that entrusted us with thousands."

Thanks for the clarification, feel free to just copy the above line and post it each day to save the effort of creating new descriptions. That will free up critical time to create new disagreements between the owners, find new agencies that you haven't licensed with, but will eventually, and generally pass the buck endlessly, other people's bucks that is.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
I was told by a higher up at Bitcoinica that they're all full of it, but I can't tell you their name.



legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1076
I was told this:
"I would suggest that the communication should be strictly about payments progress. Daily factual one-liners as in: "Today we verified 20 balances." or "We expect payments to begin on Friday", or "We're working on a secure system for issuing MtGox codes.""

If you send me a message to [email protected] then I'll forward you on to them.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003

Any answers from the 'correct person' yet?


lol..don't hold your breath
hero member
Activity: 761
Merit: 500
Mine Silent, Mine Deep
I am not the correct person to answer your questions. I have messaged the correct person.

Any answers from the 'correct person' yet?
hero member
Activity: 761
Merit: 500
Mine Silent, Mine Deep
Not sure if this has already appeared in the thread but from the bitcoinica.com page,

"Claims which have been internally identified as reasonably accurate based on records and for which the ownership of the claim has been determined will receive an initial payment of 50%"

50%? This is different from the earlier 80% plan:

30 May 23:30: We're going to proceed with payouts of the few people we have verified hopefully tomorrow for 80% of their claims (the remaining 20% will be refunded later). A more lengthy process will be applied to everyone else.

  • Why the change of plans?
  • When will the 50% refund start? Give us a date and stick to it. (The 80% refund was supposed to start May 31...)
  • Will this include the customers that were unable to password verify? (but did go through manual verification)
  • How will refunds work? And in the case of wire transfers, who will bear the cost of the transfer, esp if refunds will happen in multiple installments?

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
Almost 40 pages of bovine excrement. Where are the usual trolls calling for a "scammer" tag? Pretty sure bitscalper wasn't given this much time to make things right.

And why are you even still commenting here, Zhou? Since supposedly you have no liability you should probably just stfu and let whoever does do the explaining.

I'm glad I peeped out how fake Bitcoinica was before all of this - you guys can keep my .9 BTC that I left over there.

Hey, shut up please. I for one love the updates Zhoutong is giving us, since the Bitcoin Consultancy is lacking in the update department.


I wouldn't have said anything else because there is nothing else to really say, so your comment is pretty pointless. The reality is that if Zhou isn't the one responsible, he shouldn't be the one giving updates.

The other reality is that people should have known better after the first "hack" - if that's what it really was.
full member
Activity: 132
Merit: 100
I have $100 USD with them as a try out, glad I never dropped the thousand I was thinking about.
Have gone through basically what everyone else has, my faith is at the same levels as the information given back.
I feel for you folk who have lost lots so far but such is the new frontier.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Bitbuy
Positions will be liquidated around 5 +/- 0.1 depending on the exact math (a close price that's a suitable middle ground between longs and shorts).

I could have hedged my position, but with the lack information you pretty much screwed me out of quite a bit of money. Thanks.
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