Topic: [Payout Updates] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation - page 68. (Read 156712 times)
June 06, 2012, 11:36:09 PM
this is bad business I don't think bitcoinica will survive if they can't keep us updated, why would I trust them if they can't even give us a fucking update...
June 06, 2012, 11:25:21 PM
We have been waiting patiently behind the scenes for a resolution to this issue, which at this stage seems not to be getting any better. We were official funding partners for Bitcoinica. Yet, we have not received a single communication from them in weeks, even though we have filled the claims form like everyone else (we shouldn't need to, they know who we are. Our identity, emails, gpg keys et al are of public knowledge).
At this stage, we are unfortunately seriously considering legal action against the parties involved. Our company's retained legal counsel is in the UK which willl serve to approach the situation with Bitcoin Consultancy if needs be.
We are in the process of selecting a law firm in New Zealand and Australia to litigate the partnership, as well as the USA to hand requests for discoveries regarding these silent investors on the firm.
We will like to publicly invite anybody having a significant balance ( > USD 1,000 or equivalent) to join forces with us. We will bear the cost of the initial process, and at completion, used part of the recovered funds to proportionally pay the legal bill as commonly done by class action lawsuits.
Anyone interested, please send me a private message in the forum.
Thank you,
Roberto Gutierrez
General Manager
aurumxchange.com
At this stage, we are unfortunately seriously considering legal action against the parties involved. Our company's retained legal counsel is in the UK which willl serve to approach the situation with Bitcoin Consultancy if needs be.
We are in the process of selecting a law firm in New Zealand and Australia to litigate the partnership, as well as the USA to hand requests for discoveries regarding these silent investors on the firm.
We will like to publicly invite anybody having a significant balance ( > USD 1,000 or equivalent) to join forces with us. We will bear the cost of the initial process, and at completion, used part of the recovered funds to proportionally pay the legal bill as commonly done by class action lawsuits.
Anyone interested, please send me a private message in the forum.
Thank you,
Roberto Gutierrez
General Manager
aurumxchange.com
What do you hope to bring in minus lawyer fees? I have > $1000 in BTC there but I rather not jump the gun and have this drag out another 6 months then have to pay lawyers just to get back like $200 USD in the end.
Bitcoinica will not want this either, so they will respond maybe with some useful information. If they do not, then its clear that legal action should be taken.
Jesus Christ, this is getting worse than the feeling you get when leaving the casino dead broke
June 06, 2012, 11:19:28 PM
We have been waiting patiently behind the scenes for a resolution to this issue, which at this stage seems not to be getting any better. We were official funding partners for Bitcoinica. Yet, we have not received a single communication from them in weeks, even though we have filled the claims form like everyone else (we shouldn't need to, they know who we are. Our identity, emails, gpg keys et al are of public knowledge).
At this stage, we are unfortunately seriously considering legal action against the parties involved. Our company's retained legal counsel is in the UK which willl serve to approach the situation with Bitcoin Consultancy if needs be.
We are in the process of selecting a law firm in New Zealand and Australia to litigate the partnership, as well as the USA to hand requests for discoveries regarding these silent investors on the firm.
We will like to publicly invite anybody having a significant balance ( > USD 1,000 or equivalent) to join forces with us. We will bear the cost of the initial process, and at completion, used part of the recovered funds to proportionally pay the legal bill as commonly done by class action lawsuits.
Anyone interested, please send me a private message in the forum.
Thank you,
Roberto Gutierrez
General Manager
aurumxchange.com
At this stage, we are unfortunately seriously considering legal action against the parties involved. Our company's retained legal counsel is in the UK which willl serve to approach the situation with Bitcoin Consultancy if needs be.
We are in the process of selecting a law firm in New Zealand and Australia to litigate the partnership, as well as the USA to hand requests for discoveries regarding these silent investors on the firm.
We will like to publicly invite anybody having a significant balance ( > USD 1,000 or equivalent) to join forces with us. We will bear the cost of the initial process, and at completion, used part of the recovered funds to proportionally pay the legal bill as commonly done by class action lawsuits.
Anyone interested, please send me a private message in the forum.
Thank you,
Roberto Gutierrez
General Manager
aurumxchange.com
What do you hope to bring in minus lawyer fees? I have > $1000 in BTC there but I rather not jump the gun and have this drag out another 6 months then have to pay lawyers just to get back like $200 USD in the end.
June 06, 2012, 11:16:37 PM
I herein give Bitcoinica the right to to keep 15 of my imprisoned BTC to pay someone to fix and update their website with current status ... and while at it have a valid certificate.
I ask everyone to contribute, Genjix need a day off !
He's doing all of this without a pay from what I read.
I ask everyone to contribute, Genjix need a day off !
He's doing all of this without a pay from what I read.
June 06, 2012, 10:40:10 PM
We can only hope this rub has the proverbial Happy Ending. I suspect, as it has now gone up to the level of Big Money Players, and Big Money could hardly be expected to worry about the outrage for a couple of hunny K lost because of some little tech glitch or security oversight. They will just laugh it off, and continue to gobble up any promising tech that comes out of this world.
Looks like our baby is getting all grown up... she is getting courted by the heavy hitters, and her ethical cherry has been popped repeatedly.
Looks like our baby is getting all grown up... she is getting courted by the heavy hitters, and her ethical cherry has been popped repeatedly.
June 06, 2012, 10:34:52 PM
Quote
However, this will result in $200,000 additional loss for Bitcoinica, and I don't think they will do that.
When push comes to shove(l) to Bitcoiners who "Mine for Dollars", you simply tap the big rigs like Tihan Seale, Tim Draper and Jack Jolley (treasurer at Microsoft). Otherwise, an old seasteading term comes to mind: Fix the rig, or see the brig. (Google that phrase using quotes. You'll be taken aback of what you'll find.)
~Bruno~
Somehow I suspect that the seed funding which CoinLab received from the Draper VC group can't just be pulled out of that project to cover Bitcoinica losses - and why would you, even if you could, when you'd likely just be throwing good money after bad for no benefit. Tihan specifically said that the investments he has facilitated in other Bitcoin businesses are unrelated to Bitcoinica and I'd be utterly surprised if that was not the case. Venture capitalists and angel investors don't survive long without knowing the difference between when further investment in a business is worthwhile and when to cut their losses.
Hence the rub!
~Bruno~
June 06, 2012, 10:31:31 PM
What an absolute cluster eff. On the bright side, it's a testament to how far along bitcoin has come since last year that the price hasn't fallen off a cliff.
You aren't looking upside down enough...
Huh?
I, too, sometimes mess up when posting while under the influence of Peter Gabriel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ2hY6Fetw0
I don't even know myself. I only know that I'm still an employee.
hmmm... guys... why would you trust a company that resorts to child labor?
(inquiring again, on purpose)
https://mtgox.com/terms_of_service
Quote
they are at least 18 years of age and have the full capacity to accept these Terms and enter into a transaction resulting on the Platform
Is it safe to assume that Zhou Tong did not have an account at Mt Gox?
~Bruno~
Ehhhh, as far as I know Zhoutong ages as well. And as far as I know he's already 18 years old.
Nah! Still 17, according to the below. That'll make him about 16 if he or his company traded on Mt Gox.
http://www.crunchbase.com/person/zhou-tong/revisions
June 06, 2012, 10:12:40 PM
Quote
However, this will result in $200,000 additional loss for Bitcoinica, and I don't think they will do that.
When push comes to shove(l) to Bitcoiners who "Mine for Dollars", you simply tap the big rigs like Tihan Seale, Tim Draper and Jack Jolley (treasurer at Microsoft). Otherwise, an old seasteading term comes to mind: Fix the rig, or see the brig. (Google that phrase using quotes. You'll be taken aback of what you'll find.)
~Bruno~
Somehow I suspect that the seed funding which CoinLab received from the Draper VC group can't just be pulled out of that project to cover Bitcoinica losses - and why would you, even if you could, when you'd likely just be throwing good money after bad for no benefit. Tihan specifically said that the investments he has facilitated in other Bitcoin businesses are unrelated to Bitcoinica and I'd be utterly surprised if that was not the case. Venture capitalists and angel investors don't survive long without knowing the difference between when further investment in a business is worthwhile and when to cut their losses.
June 06, 2012, 09:56:20 PM
Quote
However, this will result in $200,000 additional loss for Bitcoinica, and I don't think they will do that.
When push comes to shove(l) to Bitcoiners who "Mine for Dollars", you simply tap the big rigs like Tihan Seale, Tim Draper and Jack Jolley (treasurer at Microsoft). Otherwise, an old seasteading term comes to mind: Fix the rig, or see the brig. (Google that phrase using quotes. You'll be taken aback of what you'll find.)
~Bruno~
Information No results found for "Fix the rig, or see the brig".
Results for Fix the rig, or see the brig (without quotes):
Doesn't seem that shocking.
Therefore, you were taken aback when you discovered nothing. (See what I did there?)
~Bruno~
June 06, 2012, 09:48:13 PM
Quote
However, this will result in $200,000 additional loss for Bitcoinica, and I don't think they will do that.
When push comes to shove(l) to Bitcoiners who "Mine for Dollars", you simply tap the big rigs like Tihan Seale, Tim Draper and Jack Jolley (treasurer at Microsoft). Otherwise, an old seasteading term comes to mind: Fix the rig, or see the brig. (Google that phrase using quotes. You'll be taken aback of what you'll find.)
~Bruno~
Information No results found for "Fix the rig, or see the brig".
Results for Fix the rig, or see the brig (without quotes):
Doesn't seem that shocking.
June 06, 2012, 09:40:58 PM
Quote
However, this will result in $200,000 additional loss for Bitcoinica, and I don't think they will do that.
When push comes to shove(l) to Bitcoiners who "Mine for Dollars", you simply tap the big rigs like Tihan Seale, Tim Draper and Jack Jolley (treasurer at Microsoft). Otherwise, an old seasteading term comes to mind: Fix the rig, or see the brig. (Google that phrase using quotes. You'll be taken aback of what you'll find.)
~Bruno~
June 06, 2012, 08:25:36 PM
Quote
Bitcoinica ToS. [12] Limitation of Liability
In no event shall Bitcoinica, its officers, directors or employees be liable for lost profits or any special, incidental or consequential damages arising out of or in connection with our web site, our services or this agreement (however arising, including negligence) except as stated in this agreement. The liability of Bitcoinica, its officers, directors or employees, to you or any third parties in any proven circumstance is limited to the amount of money you transferred or deposited in your account at Bitcoinica in relation to the transaction giving rise to such liability.
In no event shall Bitcoinica, its officers, directors or employees be liable for lost profits or any special, incidental or consequential damages arising out of or in connection with our web site, our services or this agreement (however arising, including negligence) except as stated in this agreement. The liability of Bitcoinica, its officers, directors or employees, to you or any third parties in any proven circumstance is limited to the amount of money you transferred or deposited in your account at Bitcoinica in relation to the transaction giving rise to such liability.
Anything over and above returning user deposits is really a moot point unless there's a substantial excess of liquid assets remaining after those deposits have been returned (if that was the case, Bitcoinica wouldn't be reliant on Tihan injecting more funds in order to meet anticipated claims).
I wouldn't throw yet another $200,000 at Bitcoinica unless I was certain that it would rebuild the credibility of the brand and make the business profitable again - I'd invest it in another company which didn't have reputation damage and whose management wasn't distrusted by customers.
June 06, 2012, 08:23:55 PM
His reputation is toast for good reason. Not that many people will care in a few years time though.
This is foolish. I'm so impressed by what he accomplished with Bitcoinica, and I'd bet on him in a heartbeat.
He probably needs to stop talking here so much, though.
June 06, 2012, 08:08:49 PM
Any official words on long/short liquidation price? Or how to determine them? Should we discuss a fair way to determine them? I would suggest average price between start of this incident and the time of actual payout, thought?
The only 100% fair determination is the lowest price and highest price in the duration, plus 6% p.a. interest (about 0.5% margin). Shorts will be liquidated at the lowest price and longs will be liquidated at the highest price. This way no one can manage to get a better deal and any "opportunity cost" claims will be invalid.
However, this will result in $200,000 additional loss for Bitcoinica, and I don't think they will do that.
Anyway, this could be prevented by announcing a settlement plan immediately beforehand. It's unfortunate that the losses are running so fast.
June 06, 2012, 07:40:03 PM
Created a little doc that tries (to the best of my understanding) to combine the bits and pieces of info from Bitcoinica into a more coherent doc covering the who/what/when aspects. I created it mainly for myself to get a better picture of the situation, but I figured others might find it useful so sharing here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdf
Note: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdf
Note: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update
Good job, thanks for your effort.
June 06, 2012, 07:36:12 PM
Created a little doc that tries (to the best of my understanding) to combine the bits and pieces of info from Bitcoinica into a more coherent doc covering the who/what/when aspects. I created it mainly for myself to get a better picture of the situation, but I figured others might find it useful so sharing here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdf
Note: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdf
Note: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update
Excellent job.
June 06, 2012, 07:30:33 PM
don't put much expection on them 
June 06, 2012, 07:25:55 PM
Created a little doc that tries (to the best of my understanding) to combine the bits and pieces of info from Bitcoinica into a more coherent doc covering the who/what/when aspects. I created it mainly for myself to get a better picture of the situation, but I figured others might find it useful so sharing here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdf
Note: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdf
Note: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update
June 06, 2012, 07:08:15 PM
Any official words on long/short liquidation price? Or how to determine them? Should we discuss a fair way to determine them? I would suggest average price between start of this incident and the time of actual payout, thought?
That's something the general partners will decide. It's unlikely that they're just going to come up a plan which they think is "fair" without having it reviewed by lawyers and accountants to ensure that it's compliant with their legal obligations (and it this point they haven't disclosed whether they intend to cease trading and liquidate the company entirely or whether they intend to resume trading once this clusterfuck is sorted out). With several hundred thousand dollars involved, it's unlikely that they'll risk their legal protections by not doing things according to established practice.
Quote from: zhoutong
Before that, even though I didn't have any financial interest, I was still recognized as CEO and most of my actions were approved by Tihan.
Were you able to act without Tihan's approval during that period? Were you solely responsible for making decisions about Bitcoinica's day to day operations between January and April? If not, with whom were you required to consult?
Quote from: zhoutong
The problem is, Bitcoinica LP is a Limited Partnership, with a General Partner being a limited company (it could be either Core Credit Ltd or Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd, depending on their status and agreement). Most likely the limited company has no or very little capital.
According to them, Bitcoinica Consultancy is the General Partner in Bitcoinica LP and the recent name change seems to support this. What's not clear is who was actually in control of Bitcoinica prior to the "official" date of ownership change as opposed to who was nominally managing the company.
June 06, 2012, 06:48:17 PM
Any official words on long/short liquidation price? Or how to determine them? Should we discuss a fair way to determine them? I would suggest average price between start of this incident and the time of actual payout, thought?
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