Topic: Petition to remove Wasabi from recommendations of bitcoin.org - page 5. (Read 3084 times)

Back to ignore.

Where are the flawed coinjoins?  Still waiting for evidence.  o_e_l_e_o never produced any.

Wasabi coinjoins creating outputs which can be 100% linked to a specific input: https://mempool.space/tx/dae13b2d015587a3033d7ab7949a7efa6d6ed7aa782168b0651ab37a2d8390f8
Wasabi coinjoins reusing addresses, leading to users being doxxed: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872
Wasabi coinjoins using the same address on both sides of a transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/af50a27691c0f0b7b626cddb74445a0e26bb6ed7b045861067326ea173bc17d0 (address bc1qft2uze947wtdvvhdqtx00c8el954y6ekxjk73h)

o_e_l_e_o - Wasabi coinjoins are flawed.
Kruw - Show me the evidence.
o_e_l_e_o - Here's a bunch of flawed coinjoins.
Kruw - Bu-bu-but, here's a coinjoin which you cannot de-anonymize.

Extreme reasoning there. Wasabi team must be proud of you. Lol, I now starting to get why Samourai puts their "competitor" in quotation marks every time.

Why don't they create rounds larger than 5-8 inputs?  zkSNACKs' coordinator creates coinjoins with 150-400 inputs, which provides much greater anonymity per transaction.


This is an enormous waste of block space and less private compared to skipping tx0 and creating your equal sized denominations directly from the coinjoin transaction itself (like JoinMarket's coinjoins and Wasabi 1.0's ZeroLink implementation).


The count of coinjoin transactions is not a good way to measure its popularity since some coinjoin transactions can have more or less inputs/outputs than others and more or less value mixed.  For example, users of the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol mix 3x as much new BTC and remix >10x total BTC compared to Whirlpool despite creating 1/6 of the amount of coinjoin transactions.  This is preferred since it is far more private and block space efficient to create larger sized coinjoins than smaller sized coinjoins.



Wasabi Wallet, BTCPay Server, or Trezor are your best choices since they support the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol and are prepackaged with Tor enabled by default. Like o_e_l_e_o mentioned, you need to be aware of how toxic change works.  Whirlpool coinjoins create toxic change that can be tracked when it is spent in a future transaction.  WabiSabi coinjoins eliminate toxic change by decomposing your input value into various sized denominations.  Additionally, Whirlpool exposes common input ownership from coins you use in tx0 transactions.  WabiSabi coinjoins also prevent common input ownership association, allowing multiple inputs to be registered privately by a user into a single round.


Whirlwind scammed their users, what makes you think they didn't also sell their data?


Whirlwind scammed their users, there's no excuse to give up custody of your funds or data.


The WabiSabi coinjoin protocol allows you to coinjoin from a hardware wallet.  Trezor already supports this.


The flat pool entry fee structure is designed to incentivize worst privacy practices.  Since fees are not collected directly based on volume, it is cheaper to participate in a smaller pool and create more outputs than participate in a larger pool and create less outputs. Additionally, it incentivizes revealing common inputs ownership of premix UTXOs since it is cheaper to consolidate them to enter the pool once than to enter the pool with each UTXO individually.  Samourai has never explained why they purposely chose a fee structure that heavily penalizes the most private usage of their protocol.

Because of this backwards design, you can easily link premix inputs to postmix outputs in many cases.  Notice how this Whirlpool tx0 premix creates 70 outputs for 0.05 BTC - https://mempool.space/tx/63679c9ec82f246811acbab0c04cc0fc77ba050e1b6c23661d78afcfc13cf8aa

Notice how every single input of this Whirlpool exit transaction is a direct descendant of rounds created by the aforementioned premix transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/ce2f84f7c5ff74fb1da103acb7b279bd34f02f5e9e3a2e1b6417ce8b9b7392db

When many inputs used in the postmix exit transaction are created directly from a round that the premix transaction entered, it makes it trivial to trace the user through Whirlpool.  Fortunately, the user abandoned Whirlpool and upgraded to using the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol instead, which made him completely untraceable: https://mempool.space/address/bc1qjjw5gaglkycu2lm5fskl7qhktk0hec4a5me3da

Okay, here's all the payments that can be tracked from the two new participants of the Whirlpool coinjoin transaction:

Entrant 1: bc1q03c0443ausjjdxl2h6ud5m8c0dux0zyg3dqdj7 created 0.00170417 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1q3fduld0l3r8nclyt5p3r7ak675tekurstn55tl.  Since this UTXO is not private, the sats were marked as unspendable and have not been recovered by the wallet owner  

Entrant 2: bc1qzc8zku26ej337huw5dlt390cy2r9kgnq7dhtys created 0.00191247 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1qjlltxr443uy236wl4xhpxlr6dgsu0zltlv3m44. This UTXO was used in a second tx0 transaction, creating a huge trail of transactions that could be traced to each other  

The 2nd tx0 transaction created 0.00076348 BTC unmixed change which was sent to bc1qehd7gy8rza9mnzm9wnfjhgw82rp47wmqt7vpgy

Since this unmixed change is below the .001 pool minimum, it was consolidated in a 3rd tx0 with 3 other addresses owned by the same wallet:
31x8GPqrhzdaxiBJa9N5UisuoxbX1rAnHa
16Gw5WKjbxZmg1zhZQs19Sf61fbV2xGujx
3LZtsJfUjiV5EZkkG1fwGEpTe2QEa7CNeY

The 3rd tx0 transaction created .00200317 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1q2p7gdtyahct8rdjs2khwf0sffl64qe896ya2y5
This was spent in a 0.00190000 payment to 3B8cRYc3W5jHeS3pkepwDePUmePBoEwyp1 (a reused address)

That payment left .00008553 in change that was tracked to 3Dh7R7xoKMVfLCcAtVDyhJ66se82twyZSn and consolidated with two other inputs in a 4th tx0 transaction:
bc1qeuh6sds8exm54yscrupdk03jxphw8qwzdtxgde
3ByChGBFshzGUE5oip8YYVEZDaCP2bcBmZ

This 4th tx0 created .00533406 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1qzh699s75smwukg9jcanwnlkmkn38r79ataagd9 which was consolidated with 3 more addresses into a 5th tx0:
3F2qiWQJKQjF7XFjEo8FUYP3AU5AC6RqX8
3HAYYVKUpYbr2ARMdZJr9yVu8xi8UcxtPz
3GQtwwRK31wwCc22q6WS5sCgixUHsG5KaT

The 5th tx0 created 0.00058494 BTC in unmixed change that was sent to bc1qvh2zjcwwkj9y70xulla2semvlav3lty0p3l3w3
This was spent in a .00047290 payment to bc1qvzg8jq6wqtr5navn4e3ps4qrkk9r6n4h98gjck

That payment left .00008411 in change that was tracked to bc1qg6j0f0wfhpktt2l8uzdn48ct3um2xyur40eyzd and consolidated with another input into a 6th tx0 transaction:
31iZLXWfoywhuMZTPGxTkpzphzh2NXshpP

The 6th tx0 created .00753775 in unmixed change that was tracked to bc1qgfll2apc27yct6h2c8r8wq4kqhxjsfrudhhn5q
This was spent in a .00737000 payment to bc1q5emzer2t0sq5dez0zsrqgh6scvwn0n24xsladp (a reused address)

This payment left 0.00010896 BTC in change which has not been spent yet, but the payment only took place 11 days ago, so I assume it will eventually be spent, allowing the Whirlpool user to be tracked even further.

And do what, participate in coinjoins with myself? My coordinator would need to be used by other people. It needs traffic and liquidity to make sense and justify its existence. It doesn't do me or anyone any good to have this coordinator if the majority is stuck and using your flawed one. You know, the open-source one that funds a blockchain analysis company, remember?

Except the dozens of times I've explained this to you over the last six months:

I already proved you were lying about being able identify the outputs of a WabiSabi coinjoin, remember?

The reason you never came up with any explanation

Still, why would I go through the effort of setting up a coordinator, having zero volume, trying to entice people to my coordinator, all so I can run inferior coinjoins with suffer from address reuse and identifiable outputs, when I can just run JoinMarket instead?

Because as I've shown above, the Wasabi wallet software itself is deeply flawed and reuses addresses on both sides of coinjoin transactions. Why fork flawed software in order to launch your own coordinator to bypass the anti-fungibility and anti-privacy ethos of Wasabi/zkSNACKs, when I can just use JoinMarket or Samourai with my own node which avoid all these issues in the first place.

And why would anyone waste time launching such a coordinator on software which links mixed outputs with toxic unmixed change outputs?

And sure, you can spin up your own, but if it is only you and one or two other people using it, then the anonymity it provides is easily broken. People who are using Wasabi aren't generally going to bother changing coordinator, because anyone who actually cares about privacy and not having their details fed directly to a blockchain analysis firm isn't using Wasabi in the first place.

Because, as I've given you evidence of at least a dozen times and you have completely ignored at least a dozen times, Wasabi coinjoins are deeply flawed and result in outputs being linked to inputs due to various factors such as UTXO sizes and address reuse. Why would I want to run an inferior coinjoin coordinator when I can just use a much superior product such as JoinMarket or Whirlpool?

As I've mentioned before, why would anyone waste their time, money, and resources to set up their own coordinator, spend weeks or months advertising it and enticing people to use it, all so they can run flawed coinjoins, when they can just set up and use JoinMarket in a fraction of the time.

Running your own coordinator is outside the skill set of 99.9% of users and you know it, so maybe ease off on repeating that stupid soundbite.

Stop acting stupid. You are not, so it doesn't suit you. Do a CTRL + F + "your own coordinator" or better yet, just "coordinator" and read through the responses of users when you brought it up. Not only in this thread, but all the others where you have been actively advertising Wasabi. I hope your next question won't be where else have I been writing about Wasabi?

Ah, yes, the good old you should run your own coordinator trick. You haven't used that in a while, I almost forgot that it's on your list. I wouldn't run my own coordinator for the reasons mentioned to you every time you brought it up in this and the other discussions you are active in. Remember, you have mentioned it at least 15-20 times? To be fair, we don't hear it as often as we are open-source, mixers are a scam, or the many variants of look at how flawed these other implementations are.

To sum up. You, the prophet of Bitcoin's ultimate privacy tool, suggests not using the software together with the default coordinator, the coordinator that Wasabi runs, making Wasabi and zkSNACKS the same. And because it's such a good privacy tool, it should be avoided and people should move away from zkSNACKS, Wasabi's main coordinator. If that isn't excellent advertising for your company, I don't know what is.  

Wasabi does not stop being privacy software just because a business does not want to accept your money.  You can use any coordinator with Wasabi, including your own.  The signers of this petition can simply coordinate coinjoins among themselves since they are all united in their decision not to use the default coordinator, and no one could stop you:

If you think there's a "flaw" in Wasabi because another coordinator won't accept your coins, then why don't you run your own coordinator?  All the code is open source...

Synchronice, the person who posted just before you and whose post you didn't comment on, offered a good explanation of why Wasabi together with your main coordinator (which is Wasabi all over again) is flawed. You are a supposed bitcoin privacy tool that funds a blockchain analysis company whose objective is to remove privacy. It's the equivalent of fighting against illegal drug trafficking, but holding regular business meetings with Mexican drug kings. They are interested in getting rid of the drugs as much as your blockchain analysis company is interested in helping people maintain their privacy.      

Open source solves your problem which is why I keep suggesting it.  If your notes were censored by a Nostr relay, then I would tell you the same thing:  Run your own relay.  Your obsession about the reasons why some other Nostr relay isn't storing your notes is no longer your problem and not really interesting in the first place.  I do the same thing when opening Lightning channels:  Attempt a new peer if I am rejected by my first choice.  I don't open a petition against Lightning software development companies because they don't want to accept my channel, I can use simply use their software to connect to any node.

You don't have any evidence Wasabi is flawed.  You are bluffing.

We have shown him evidence of Wasabi being flawed so many times that it has become tiresome.

Wasabi is completely private: It protects your IP from being leaked with Tor, it prevents your xpub address from being leaked with block filters, and it protects your addresses from being linked together on chain with coinjoin.

I've had him on ignore for months; I suggest everyone else does the same

He is not going to get tired of sweeping the problems under the carpet and taking the attention away from those problems to other Wasabi features or explaining how other competitors are much worse, so please don't get tired of pointing out how full of shit he is. If you do, only his views and comments will remain and be taken as the truth because no one is contradicting them.