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Topic: Petition to remove Wasabi from recommendations of bitcoin.org - page 9. (Read 3084 times)

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Kruw on September 12, 2023, 04:27:58 AM

Coordinators do not have the power to execute Sybil attacks without being detected, so coordinators cannot delegate such a power to a chain analysis company.

I mean, definitely a lie. A coordinator randomly rejecting inputs can do quite noticeable harm to the coinjoin.

Quote from: Kruw on September 12, 2023, 04:27:58 AM

BlackHatCoiner, why haven't you set up a WabiSabi coordinator yet?

Because I want to be as much detached from Wasabi as possible. You can call it dogma, but I just don't want to run their software, especially when there are better alternatives. There have been multiple accusations of it being flawed, and I don't have the liquidity to make an attractive coordinator, which is pretty much the same for the average coinjoin user. I'm also encouraged to work on more decentralized solutions, like Joinmarket which is by the way more Sybil resistant than Wasabi, as it utilizes fidelity bonds.

Quote from: Kruw on September 12, 2023, 04:27:58 AM

Since no one on this thread is coordinating coinjoins themselves, it's proof that all the petitioners don't actually want to circumvent coinjoin censorship, they just want to harm the reputation of open source software.

Lol. As if there are no other solutions proposed? Just because we don't run our own Wasabi coordinators, it doesn't mean we don't get along other privacy options.

Kruw

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 12, 2023, 03:45:51 AM

Quote from: Kruw on September 11, 2023, 03:28:42 PM

You should be concerned of an active Sybil attacker regardless of whether other inputs are rejected or not. Mining fees prevent continuous attacks, large sized rounds prevent single attacks.

Maybe you should be concerned a little more if you're voluntarily giving the power to a chain analysis company to decide to execute the Sybil attack more trivially?

Coordinators do not have the power to execute Sybil attacks without being detected, so coordinators cannot delegate such a power to a chain analysis company.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 12, 2023, 03:45:51 AM

Quote from: Kruw on September 11, 2023, 03:28:42 PM

If rejections were arbitrary and commonplace then that would give you an eager customer base from which you could attract users to your own WabiSabi coinjoin coordinator. Why haven't you set up your own WabiSabi coinjoin coordinator yet?

Here you are, engaging in whataboutism for the billionth time. This isn't what Pmalek asked you. It's pretty simple to grasp, but apparently not as simple to ignore it: the company responsible for Wasabi is preaching about openness and transparency. Why would it let a chain analysis company, which is described by the lack of both openness and transparency, decide who isn't allowed to coinjoin?

BlackHatCoiner, why haven't you set up a WabiSabi coordinator yet? Since no one on this thread is coordinating coinjoins themselves, it's proof that all the petitioners don't actually want to circumvent coinjoin censorship, they just want to harm the reputation of open source software.

BlackHatCoiner

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Activity: 1512

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Kruw on September 11, 2023, 03:28:42 PM

You should be concerned of an active Sybil attacker regardless of whether other inputs are rejected or not. Mining fees prevent continuous attacks, large sized rounds prevent single attacks.

Maybe you should be concerned a little more if you're voluntarily giving the power to a chain analysis company to decide to execute the Sybil attack more trivially?

Quote from: Kruw on September 11, 2023, 03:28:42 PM

Kruw

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 11, 2023, 10:47:35 AM

Quote from: Kruw on September 11, 2023, 05:05:41 AM

Given that 9 out of the 10 inputs were accepted, you can conclude the round is not under attack since 9 out of 10 would have to be rejected for the attack to be effective.

If random inputs are getting rejected, shouldn't that be a concern since the chain analysis company may be trying to weaken the coinjoin by replacing the rejected coins with theirs?

You should be concerned of an active Sybil attacker regardless of whether other inputs are rejected or not. Mining fees prevent continuous attacks, large sized rounds prevent single attacks.

Quote from: Pmalek on September 11, 2023, 11:49:01 AM

Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 09:28:19 AM

I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear, thank you. You don't know! You (as in Wasabi and zkSNACKs, not you personally) have no idea what are good and what are bad coins. You don't know the reason someone isn't allowed to improve their privacy. They don't tell you. You accept the decisions made by Coinfirm without asking, hey, what exactly is wrong with those UTXOs?

Why would a company that preaches openness accept unknown rules and requirements by someone that doesn't explain to them those same rules and requirements? If there is such a thing as dirty bitcoins, don't you think everyone should know what that is and not rely on some weird entity that presents that information to you for whatever reasons they think they should?

Pmalek

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Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 09:28:19 AM

I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 11, 2023, 03:33:25 AM

But the same hypothesis, I want people to "clean" their UTXOs from "taint"

If by "taint", you mean the list of coins which are treated unequally by chain analysis firms (some of which do get funded by the US government), then we actually don't know what will happen, and probably neither any Wasabi developer knows. As I said, their coordinator makes a request to Coinfirm and will enforce that UTXO list to the coinjoin round. Your coins could be accepted even if you're wanted by the FBI, or could be refused even if you're innocent.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 11, 2023, 03:33:25 AM

You don't know? But a centralized entity making claims such as zkSNACKS should be regulated by an authority in case those claims aren't real, no?

I still don't get where you're confused. Which claim by zkSNACKs is false if they approve a coin which is deemed as "naughty" by some chain analysis firm?

Quote from: Kruw on September 11, 2023, 05:05:41 AM

Given that 9 out of the 10 inputs were accepted, you can conclude the round is not under attack since 9 out of 10 would have to be rejected for the attack to be effective.

If random inputs are getting rejected, shouldn't that be a concern since the chain analysis company may be trying to weaken the coinjoin by replacing the rejected coins with theirs?

Kruw

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 10, 2023, 03:34:30 PM

Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 02:39:20 PM

Not with WabiSabi, you can detect this happening since you can register multiple inputs independently

You register 10 (non-private) inputs, and 1 of them gets rejected, what is your conclusion? To me, absolutely none.

Given that 9 out of the 10 inputs were accepted, you can conclude the round is not under attack since 9 out of 10 would have to be rejected for the attack to be effective.

Wind_FURY

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Activity: 2898

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 10, 2023, 12:47:22 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 09:06:54 AM

HIRE me? Is that an accusation? Or are you merely too stupid to recognize sarcasm?

Yes, I'm the one incapable of recognizing sarcasm... Roll Eyes

OK, then I beg for forgiveness ser. Haha. But the same hypothesis, I want people to "clean" their UTXOs from "taint" and send "dirty" UTXOs from the Dark Markets through Wasabi's CoinJoin by first going through JoinMarket -> Lightning Network -> Bitcoin blockchain, then Wasabi. They could also add Samourai for another layer before Wasabi. Cool

Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 09:28:19 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 09:06:54 AM

Then according to that, we can sue zkSNACKS for false advertising if a government entity, or an exchange, blocks, locks, or confiscates our coins because they are "tainted" even after going through Wasabi-CoinJoin?

That question goes to you too, Kruw.

I don't know.

You don't know? But a centralized entity making claims such as zkSNACKS should be regulated by an authority in case those claims aren't real, no? That's probably something to think about.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 02:39:20 PM

Not with WabiSabi, you can detect this happening since you can register multiple inputs independently

You register 10 (non-private) inputs, and 1 of them gets rejected, what is your conclusion? To me, absolutely none. Coinfirm might have deemed this one input as inappropriate, or it might be trying to get rid of some coinjoin inputs, so they can use theirs instead and de-anonymize the remaining registered inputs. Who knows. For instance, a 150-input long coinjoin can have its 75 inputs rejected, and replaced with 75 Coinfirm inputs. That leaves the firm with 50% less output set to account for.

Kruw

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 10, 2023, 12:47:22 PM

In fact, in that thread we've covered how a Sybil attack could be executed that way.

Not with WabiSabi, you can detect this happening since you can register multiple inputs independently:

Quote from: ?? on ??

The WabiSabi coinjoin protocol is uniquely resilient against the sort of Sybil attack you just described, I explain how a malicious coordinator can be detected by clients here: https://twitter.com/Kruwed/status/1643265823409143810

BlackHatCoiner

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Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 09:06:54 AM

HIRE me? Is that an accusation? Or are you merely too stupid to recognize sarcasm?

Yes, I'm the one incapable of recognizing sarcasm... Roll Eyes

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 09:06:54 AM

Obviously no. What made you think so?

Quote from: Pmalek on September 10, 2023, 08:48:04 AM

Where are the answers to my questions?

You're asking the wrong person. Here you go: https://www.coinfirm.com/contact/.

The default coordinator knows nothing as far as I can tell from the unit tests. As I have said before, the default coordinator initiates a requests for every coinjoin in Coinfirm, they get the input (which is the list of the wanna-be-mixed inputs) and with probably no questioning select which coin is "naughty", remove it from the array and return it to the coordinator. In fact, in that thread we've covered how a Sybil attack could be executed that way.

Kruw

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Quote from: Pmalek on September 10, 2023, 08:48:04 AM

Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 07:53:48 AM

Open source solves your problem which is why I keep suggesting it.

No, you keep suggesting it because you are avoiding to answer the questions. Where are the answers to my questions? Every time a tricky subject comes up that makes Wasabi or your coordinator look bad, you immediately divert attention to something else. I asked you why you have partnered with a blockchain analysis company and accept their inputs and views of what and how bitcoin should work and which coin are good and bad, and your response to that is the equivalent of let's not talk about that, but look at how we are giving donations to the Human Rights Foundation. Let's see if you will answer the questions now.

I thought it was obvious your questions were rhetorical... but I'll answer them since you won't move on to the topic of open source software until you hear from me:

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 09:06:54 AM

I don't know.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 10, 2023, 07:06:22 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 06:46:43 AM

Let's give thanks to WasabiWallet for giving us this wonderful opportunity.

Did Wasabi hire you too?

HIRE me? Is that an accusation? Or are you merely too stupid to recognize sarcasm?

How dare you.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 06:46:43 AM

Are you saying that we can sue zkSNACKS for false advertising if our Wasabi CoinJoined UTXOs are blocked, locked, and confiscated?

When did zkSNACKs promise you government approved coins?

Pmalek

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Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 07:53:48 AM

Open source solves your problem which is why I keep suggesting it.

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Pmalek on September 10, 2023, 01:35:32 AM

Quote from: Kruw on September 09, 2023, 07:50:45 AM

You are using the terms "partnership" and "cooperation" to describe a relationship between a customer and a business, which is misleading. There are companies whose business model involves aggregating reports of coins being stolen, and zkSNACKs buys those reports in order to avoid accepting those stolen coins. If zkSNACKs were to buy a McDonald's hamburger, that does not mean "zkSNACKs is partnering with McDonald's".

Wasabi or zkSNACKs aren't private customers, though. They are businesses using the services of other business entities (blockchain analysis) whose version of the truth and estimation affects their own operations. In other words, you accept the decision of the blockchain analysis company's views regarding the cleanliness of my UTXOs. My participation in your coinjoins depends on the truth the blockchain analysis firm serves to you. I call that a partnership and cooperation. You are free to use any other terms you like.

How do you know stolen coins are getting rejected? You keep talking about open-source, where can we see these rules publicly?
According to whose criteria will certain UTXOs be added to whatever list is being used to determine naughtiness of coins?
Who made that list and in whose name? What entity or government agency is responsible to maintain it, make changes, and decide what's good and what's bad?
Who do I get in touch with if my UTXOs were rejected for reasons unknown to me?

Being in possession of stolen money or other means of payments doesn't necessarily make the owner a thief. You do understand that money and crypto circulate. As someone involved in the crypto business, you should know that those rules your blockchain partners present to you can't be applied to cash and fiat, otherwise a lot of it would have to be confiscated and taken out of circulation because many bills had contact or were used in illegal actions at one point in their past.

This is a good point what prevents a 'coin' from bring blacklisted.
What allows one to fight the claim that a coin is tainted.

A block analysis company can say you have a tainted coin so how do you check its methodology.

I think the concern is wasabi will be providing a piece of the puzzle to blockchain analysts not all the info but a piece of info.

Kruw

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Quote from: Pmalek on September 10, 2023, 06:58:41 AM

Are you going to go back to suggesting that we can run our own coordinators if we don't agree to what zkSNACKS is doing?

Open source solves your problem which is why I keep suggesting it. If your notes were censored by a Nostr relay, then I would tell you the same thing: Run your own relay. Your obsession about the reasons why some other Nostr relay isn't storing your notes is no longer your problem and not really interesting in the first place. I do the same thing when opening Lightning channels: Attempt a new peer if I am rejected by my first choice. I don't open a petition against Lightning software development companies because they don't want to accept my channel, I can use simply use their software to connect to any node.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 06:46:43 AM

Let's give thanks to WasabiWallet for giving us this wonderful opportunity.

Did Wasabi hire you too?

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 06:46:43 AM

Are you saying that we can sue zkSNACKS for false advertising if our Wasabi CoinJoined UTXOs are blocked, locked, and confiscated?

When did zkSNACKs promise you government approved coins?

Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 06:50:07 AM

Step 1 of "Exchange your BTC for Monero" is where the privacy is lost since your Bitcoin transaction history is revealed to your exchange counterparty

Public ledger is public. My Bitcoin transaction history is already accessible by everyone. Exchanging for Monero is where the tracing stops, just as when you do coinjoins. To put it this way: arguing that, is like saying coinjoining is weak, because the coordinator knows the coins' history.

Pmalek

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Quote from: Kruw on September 10, 2023, 04:50:56 AM

Since the coordinator code is all open source, you get to decide your own criteria yourself.

Are you going to go back to suggesting that we can run our own coordinators if we don't agree to what zkSNACKS is doing? Touching upon that subject again is a waste of time. We are now talking about your coordinator, as in the default coordinator. zkSNACKS accepts whatever assessment the blockchain analysis company makes about coin dirtiness and won't allow such coins to coinjoin. Right or wrong?

And the open-source nature of Wasabi or your coordinator doesn't matter on the subject of taint. It's the blockchain analysis firm that determines taint according to their interpretations. The questions I asked and you didn't answer are about that. So, here they are again.

Quote

How do you know stolen coins are getting rejected? You keep talking about open-source, where can we see these rules publicly?
According to whose criteria will certain UTXOs be added to whatever list is being used to determine naughtiness of coins?
Who made that list and in whose name? What entity or government agency is responsible to maintain it, make changes, and decide what's good and what's bad?
Who do I get in touch with if my UTXOs were rejected for reasons unknown to me?

Kruw

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Quote from: pooya87 on September 10, 2023, 05:26:04 AM

Being open source means absolutely nothing here because nobody has any way of knowing what the actual source code the centralized default coordinator is running.

Being open source means you can run your own coordinator.

Quote from: pooya87 on September 10, 2023, 05:26:04 AM

It does as it successfully breaks the link between the bitcoins you convert to XMR and the bitcoins you get after selling XMR because of the way Monero is implemented.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 10, 2023, 05:48:05 AM

I leave no trace other than the information that person with UTXO(s) x, y, z wants to trade them for either some cryptocurrency or fiat (specifically for what, is an information only known by the other person). Just as with coinjoin, I signal that I want UTXO(s) x, y, z to be mixed.

Monero is not the weak link in this equation, Bitcoin is. Step 1 of "Exchange your BTC for Monero" is where the privacy is lost since your Bitcoin transaction history is revealed to your exchange counterparty (unless you coinjoin to do this exchange, in which case you have no need for Monero in the first place since you already have privacy on Bitcoin).

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 10, 2023, 04:31:30 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 04:11:02 AM

what the user could do before using Wasabi's coordinator is like what Peter Todd said in the video. Use layers.

Here's another idea if we're about to utilize layers: exchange BTC for XMR and XMR for BTC a little while later. Leaves no traces, much better than Wasabi + lightning altogether. You could then coinjoin the bitcoin, just to minimize the blockchain connection with the previous owner.

But but I want my UTXOs to go through a government-approved CoinJoin to get the highest value on those UTXOs. The government could force exchanges to make that a requirement before they can accept deposits, so I want to teach as much people to use their "tainted" UTXOs to go through JoinMarket -> Lightning Network -> Back to Bitcoin blockchain -> To Wasabi CoinJoin.

Let's give thanks to WasabiWallet for giving us this wonderful opportunity.

Cool

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 10, 2023, 04:11:02 AM

If you have "low value", "tainted" UTXOs from the Dark Markets, you could use JoinMarket, and use those UTXOs in Lightning, then send them to yourself. Convert them to onchain Bitcoin then use Wasabi CoinJoin. You now have "government-friendly" UTXOs ready for cold storage. Thanks Wasabi!

See, that's the problem. You think Wasabi implemented blacklisting and now their coinjoined coins are government friendly. We have absolutely no clue with what factors their chain analysis works. We only know that chain analysis is evidently not scientific; what Coinfirm deems as "clean" coins does not necessarily imply the same for other firms.

Are you saying that we can sue zkSNACKS for false advertising if our Wasabi CoinJoined UTXOs are blocked, locked, and confiscated?

Cool