Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 12.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:40:49 PM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 06:31:13 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:20:53 PM

If you want to select for peacefulness, it is best if peaceful people have the tools to defend against violent behavior. A peaceful person does not become violent when armed, but he does become a more dangerous target for the violent people to attack.

What does living in a violent environment do to people?

What is a more violent environment,
this (Porcfest 2009):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2484/3660895006_9bf4b133d8_z.jpg?zz=1

or this (just a few days ago):
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/14/52/70/3321374/7/628x471.jpg

Do you always avoid answering questions by asking a question of your own?

And, from just looking at the pictures, obviously the second one. But what you're proposing if I understand you correctly, is that everywhere should be like the second pic. Arm everybody.

BitcoinINV

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 06:51:03 PM

I'm not sure how to do that. Perhaps if you give guns to inmates on one US prison where the offenders are violent, and compare the effects to a regular prison?

Or, you could compare violent crime rates in countries both before and after gun laws were passed, like this guy did:
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636

Sweet I'm going to get that book for bathroom reading lol

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 06:51:03 PM

I'm not sure how to do that. Perhaps if you give guns to inmates on one US prison where the offenders are violent, and compare the effects to a regular prison?

Or, you could compare violent crime rates in countries both before and after gun laws were passed, like this guy did:
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: Explodicle on August 17, 2012, 06:26:45 PM

Correct, which is what mandatory liability insurance would do. You haven't justified just having one sweeping policy for the foolish and wise alike.

Would you rather face a robber while you are armed or unarmed?

I'm not disputing American aggression. I'm disputing a causality between permissive gun laws and homocide rate, so you'd have to show how homocides decrease in jurisdictions once gun bans are enacted.

What sweeping policy have I proposed?

I have been robbed. I was unarmed and gave up what little I had on me. He got a little cash, I got away unharmed. Had I been armed I might have resisted which would have ended badly for one of us.

I'm not sure how to do that. Perhaps if you give guns to inmates on one US prison where the offenders are violent, and compare the effects to a regular prison?

BitcoinINV

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

I once had a Wise Gunnery Sargent in the Marine Corps that said "The only reason the United States, has not or will not ever get invaded is, There are enough weapons to arm every Man, Women and Child willing to defend there land. No self respecting person would let any one come take there land. It really has nothing to do with the country it has to do with what is protecting what is yours. Your country, your state, your county, your city, your block. Its yours and if you like the way you live, you would shoot any invader foreign or domestic trying to take it plain and simple."

I am a believer of this 100%, if there is a will there is a way gun or no gun. Crackheads will rob you with a gun or a knife does not matter.
http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2011/Bills/Senate/PDF/S34v0.pdf

And here is a perfect example

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/investigating-102834-police-shooting.html

USMC 6541 Aviation Ordie tech.... I built bombs and worked on there electronic systems.
IYAOYAS b*tches!

**** edit ****
New York has a anti hand gun law and it has DONE NOTHING!

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 06:31:13 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:20:53 PM

If you want to select for peacefulness, it is best if peaceful people have the tools to defend against violent behavior. A peaceful person does not become violent when armed, but he does become a more dangerous target for the violent people to attack.

What does living in a violent environment do to people?

What is a more violent environment,
this (Porcfest 2009):

or this (just a few days ago):

asdf

hero member

Activity: 527

Merit: 500

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 06:31:13 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:20:53 PM

If you want to select for peacefulness, it is best if peaceful people have the tools to defend against violent behavior. A peaceful person does not become violent when armed, but he does become a more dangerous target for the violent people to attack.

What does living in a violent environment do to people?

The state cultivates violence. It is a system entirely based on violence. You want to prevent violence by using the treat of violence to remove peoples ability to defend themselves from said violence.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:20:53 PM

If you want to select for peacefulness, it is best if peaceful people have the tools to defend against violent behavior. A peaceful person does not become violent when armed, but he does become a more dangerous target for the violent people to attack.

What does living in a violent environment do to people?

Explodicle

hero member

Activity: 950

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 05:58:00 PM

Quote from: Explodicle on August 17, 2012, 05:13:06 PM

If your goal is to prevent harm to others, then you also want to prevent the potential harm from NOT having a gun. Since the whole group won't grow up at the same time, it's more fair and efficient to evaluate this on a case-by-case basis with mandatory liability insurance (like cars). That way you won't deem society ready and give guns to idiots, and won't deem society unready and deny guns to to cautious trained citizens.

Gun laws DON'T reduce murders, look it up if you don't believe me.

Like I said in my OP I think it's the culture that needs to change. In a violent culture you need to limit the access to dangerous things.

Correct, which is what mandatory liability insurance would do. You haven't justified just having one sweeping policy for the foolish and wise alike.

Quote

You would also rather be accidentally stabbed during a robbery, than accidentally shot. Or even intentionally stabbed come to think about it.

Would you rather face a robber while you are armed or unarmed?

Quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

The US is far higher than Canada, Europe or Australia, which are the usual comparison objects. Three to four times higher.

I'm not disputing American aggression. I'm disputing a causality between permissive gun laws and homocide rate, so you'd have to show how homocides decrease in jurisdictions once gun bans are enacted.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 06:12:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:02:14 PM

Give everybody guns, violent culture fixes self.

Gonna need a mop, though.

Great solution. Make sure everyone tries to be the most violent. That will turn out well I'm sure.

If you want to select for peacefulness, it is best if peaceful people have the tools to defend against violent behavior. A peaceful person does not become violent when armed, but he does become a more dangerous target for the violent people to attack.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: myrkul on August 17, 2012, 06:02:14 PM

Give everybody guns, violent culture fixes self.

Gonna need a mop, though.

Great solution. Make sure everyone tries to be the most violent. That will turn out well I'm sure.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Give everybody guns, violent culture fixes self.

Gonna need a mop, though.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: Explodicle on August 17, 2012, 05:13:06 PM

If your goal is to prevent harm to others, then you also want to prevent the potential harm from NOT having a gun. Since the whole group won't grow up at the same time, it's more fair and efficient to evaluate this on a case-by-case basis with mandatory liability insurance (like cars). That way you won't deem society ready and give guns to idiots, and won't deem society unready and deny guns to to cautious trained citizens.

Gun laws DON'T reduce murders, look it up if you don't believe me.

Like I said in my OP I think it's the culture that needs to change. In a violent culture you need to limit the access to dangerous things. You would also rather be accidentally stabbed during a robbery, than accidentally shot. Or even intentionally stabbed come to think about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

The US is far higher than Canada, Europe or Australia, which are the usual comparison objects. Three to four times higher.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 07:41:23 AM

Like taking pointy objects away from out-of-control children.

I think C. S. Lewis said it best:

Quote from: C. S. Lewis

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

Explodicle

hero member

Activity: 950

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 04:27:40 PM

Quote from: Explodicle on August 17, 2012, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 07:41:23 AM

Like taking pointy objects away from out-of-control children.

Here's a good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

Seems about right. "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right."

When US-ians stop shooting at each other and start behaving like other countries gun-wielding citizens, they can have their guns back.

If your goal is to prevent harm to others, then you also want to prevent the potential harm from NOT having a gun. Since the whole group won't grow up at the same time, it's more fair and efficient to evaluate this on a case-by-case basis with mandatory liability insurance (like cars). That way you won't deem society ready and give guns to idiots, and won't deem society unready and deny guns to to cautious trained citizens.

Gun laws DON'T reduce murders, look it up if you don't believe me.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: TheButterZone on August 17, 2012, 02:45:41 PM

Fewer guns in the hands of good Samaritans, more killings/injuries with all other weapons.

Well, looking at this info it seems that other weapons are less lethal, which is probably why we developed guns in the first place.

Direct admission to the mortuary was three times as common in cases of gunshot compared with stab wounds. The hospital mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 8 times that for stab wounds. http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1997/02/24/knives-00006/

More limited access to guns, fewer deaths. Some criminals would still have them, but most wouldn't risk it if carrying one was an offense that had a few years imprisonment attached to it.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: Explodicle on August 17, 2012, 03:01:11 PM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 07:41:23 AM

Like taking pointy objects away from out-of-control children.

Here's a good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

Seems about right. "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right."

When US-ians stop shooting at each other and start behaving like other countries gun-wielding citizens, they can have their guns back.

Explodicle

hero member

Activity: 950

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AntiCap on August 17, 2012, 07:41:23 AM

Like taking pointy objects away from out-of-control children.

Here's a good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3010

Merit: 1031

RIP Mommy

Fewer guns in the hands of good Samaritans, more killings/injuries with all other weapons.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Gun control in the US? Absolutely.

There are many countries with a lot more guns per capita than the US that have far fewer gun related crimes, so clearly the gun isn't the issue. But violence seems to be embedded in US culture and that's why gun control is necessary. Fewer guns, fewer killings/injuries.

Like taking pointy objects away from out-of-control children.

Fix the culture and the gun control can go away again.

Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 12. (Read 17901 times)