Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 6. (Read 17866 times)

The legal price is relevant because guns in the US that end up used in crime are often legally purchased originally.  We don't have many, "Oops, my fully automatic AK-47 got stolen, Officer!" when it costs 10k and the number of available guns is finite.  A rich collector will pay more than a bank robber because the bank robber will just use a cheap handgun or (rarely) semi-auto rifle so the fully-auto guns stay off the black market.

 I would be interested in the black market price in the US if someone can dig it up, but again there just isn't that much demand.  The country is flooded with tons of guns already and large scale importation of illegal firearms is (relatively) difficult because of serious port security.  There is a much bigger market for these weapons in the developing world where people actually fight battles with them.  In general, the US illegally exports firearms far more than it imports them.  

Rarity will never answer this, because he doesn't want to admit that it just boils down to "I'm skeered of 'em!"

Wait I thought we agreed that was a legal fully-auto? Someone go check silk road for the black market price...

Banning manufacture and import is functionally a ban.  You are simply disputing semantics.  If you want to repeat the steps that have led to a fully auto costing $10000 and being out of the hands of criminals for other firearms but call it "Oktoberfest" instead of "Ban" I'm entirely okay with it, the semantics don't bother me.  In fact, it will probably make it an easier sale to the public.

Okay, so you admit they are not banned.  Then your premise has failed, has it not?

And what is your motivation for the belief that they shout be banned?

Slow down there.  I was talking directly about black market purchases.  I already discussed the legal option.


Well, it's a premise.  If you want to declare it false, link me the average cost for a black market AK in the US.  I can't dig it up.  However, when we are talking about crime in the US we are talking about guns commonly moving from legal purchases on to the black market.  If we made the fully auto weapons widely available, there is no doubt they would be just as cheap as the semi-auto weapons now and moving through that process to enter the black market.  Gun control prevents that.  The weapons must be imported into a country with very tough law enforcement and a market already flooded with guns.  Better to sell them elsewhere.


Holy triple post.  Slow down.  Weapons like an AK can be owned if they have been grandfathered in, however they are banned for import and for new manufacture for civilian sale. Old grandfathered in weapons are good for collectors and hobbyists, not criminals and murderers.


Well it was a different time.  These regulations date back to the 1930s when Tommy guns in the hands of mobsters and robbers were scaring the shit out of people.  That was all a bit exaggerated though and the gun wasn't that common.  As I've said, fully auto weapons really aren't the best for crime. 


Well, box cutters and airplanes, and we took the sensible control method of locking the cockpit doors from now on.  If you have a sensible preventative measure, you should take it.  There were 11,493 firearm homicides in the US in 2009.  That's several 911's every year.

From a quick googling it looks like very few automatics are reported to be used in crimes, which at least indicates the type of person who chooses to own one anyway. We would need to see before-ban and after-ban stats to really compare though.

We should also remember that the most successful mass-murder in recent US history was done with box-cutters.

Interesting. You've changed your position twice. In consecutive posts, no less. So, which is it, a good choice, a slight gain, or roughly equal?

Well, your attempt at preemption is a fail, since as I have already pointed out, Class II & Class III weapons are not banned.  They're regulated at the federal level, and rather harshly, but they are not illegal.

http://www.knobcreekrange.com/events/featured-events/machine-gun-shoot

This is also an untrue statement.  It's not illegal for a US citizen, with zero history of criminal activities nor mental illness, to own or buy a fully automatic weapon, a short-barreled shotgun, or even a shoulder fired anti-vehicle & wire guided missile.  What is required is a license for each of these classes of federally regulated weapons, and a lot of money.  As you have already alluded to, it's mostly the cost of the process that is the limiting factor.  It is simply not true that there is a ban on such weapons in the US.

This is based on a false premise.  Namely that the cost of a legally registered class III weapon is directly corrolated to the black market price of an equivalent weapon.  While there are many ways that regulation can affect the black market prices of such weapons, there comes a point that the black market weapon is cheaper to aquire than a legitimately registered one; then gun control regulations fail.  This price point is always crossed under a complete ban, so it's reasonable to look at places where such weapons are unavailable other than on the black market to take a reasonable guess as to what the maximum that regulations can force up the black market price of such weapons.

There are other practical reasons than just the high cost that criminals don't generally use class III weapons, as they are usually used by thugs who have limited experience with automatic weapons, and even the well trained USMC doesn't use full auto M-16's anymore for the average grunt; because the user has a tendency to squeeze the trigger until his magazine is empty.  A semi-auto is a better weapon most of the time anyway.

Fully auto?  Unlikely.  Maybe bump fired.


If you have any stats that show fully automatic weapons are showing up in any numbers worth mentioning in cases of mass murder or crime in the US compared to less controlled weapons, go ahead and post them.  As far as I am aware, you won't find them so the black market prices seem irrelevant. I doubt you will find the prohibition has a downward pressure on the price.  They are highly illegal and there is no demand when a semi-auto does the job just as well.

Those are probably AKs. Much cheaper, much more widespread. Also, much more reliable.

That's the price for a legal one. I have no experience in how easy it is to do the mod or what effects it has on reliability. I do know that you can hear them going off in the hood on 4th of july.

Again, Rarity, this is a very simple question: Why?

As a gun control advocate, you should be able to answer why you think guns should be controlled.

As far as I am aware, easy conversion to real full-auto is a bit of a myth though I imagine it can be done if someone has the right tools.  However, it generally isn't done because for criminal or mass murder purposes you aren't really gaining much and are in some ways losing out on reliability by altering a gun to be fully auto that was not really designed for it. 

As for ownership numbers, I have no idea.  They are so rare I doubt anybody even tracks them.  According to Googling on gun forums, people price out at fully auto AK as a bargain at $10k.  You can get the legal semi version for much, much less.  Gun control has priced the full auto versions out of the reach of the common criminal, and we could do the same with the semi-auto version if we wanted.

I have no idea that's why I was asking. I do know that it is said to be pretty easy to turn an AR15 into an M16 and the instructions are freely available online, no idea how many people do this but that would make it difficult to get a good estimate on how effective the suppression of automatic rifle ownership is.

I don't have precise figures.  Tell me, would it be false of me to suggest:

1.  Much fewer than there are AR-15 and variants.
2.  That it is much less often the weapon used in crimes or mass murder than the AR-15 and variants.  

(And yes, I am aware handguns dwarf both in ownership and criminal use. The point is simply to compare two very similar weapons to note the difference gun control makes between them.)

How many M-16s do you believe are in US civilian hands right now?

One small question: Why?