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Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 4. (Read 17920 times)

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August 27, 2012, 09:01:04 PM
Quote
You missed a key point.  Only a completely insane individual would pull a gun in a public place if he knew at least 50% of the individuals around him were armed and knew how to use it safely.  

And yet this guy pointed a gun straight at two armed police officers and isn't crazy as far as I know.  Adding extra guns to the scenario just makes it more dangerous.  The national gun control method has been proven to work well in practice and is the best way to go. 
What if the government becomes corrupt and unresponsive to its citizens and needs to be overthrown? How are we supposed to get our guns back and ready?

Our heroes in the military are sworn to uphold the constitution, not the government.  In the case of a corrupt government that abandons Democracy they will restore order and the police will side with their local communities against any abuse.
You know, that's a really good response actually. Smiley It's good to meet you.

You too. 
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
August 27, 2012, 08:55:49 PM
Our heroes in the military are sworn to uphold the constitution, not the government.  In the case of a corrupt government that abandons Democracy they will restore order and the police will side with their local communities against any abuse.

In theory.... https://rt.com/usa/news/chesterfield-veteran-facebook-arrest-106/
newbie
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August 27, 2012, 08:42:58 PM
Quote
You missed a key point.  Only a completely insane individual would pull a gun in a public place if he knew at least 50% of the individuals around him were armed and knew how to use it safely.  

And yet this guy pointed a gun straight at two armed police officers and isn't crazy as far as I know.  Adding extra guns to the scenario just makes it more dangerous.  The national gun control method has been proven to work well in practice and is the best way to go. 
What if the government becomes corrupt and unresponsive to its citizens and needs to be overthrown? How are we supposed to get our guns back and ready?

Our heroes in the military are sworn to uphold the constitution, not the government.  In the case of a corrupt government that abandons Democracy they will restore order and the police will side with their local communities against any abuse.
You know, that's a really good response actually. Smiley It's good to meet you.
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August 27, 2012, 08:42:14 PM
Quote
You missed a key point.  Only a completely insane individual would pull a gun in a public place if he knew at least 50% of the individuals around him were armed and knew how to use it safely.  

And yet this guy pointed a gun straight at two armed police officers and isn't crazy as far as I know.  Adding extra guns to the scenario just makes it more dangerous.  The national gun control method has been proven to work well in practice and is the best way to go.  
What if the government becomes corrupt and unresponsive to its citizens and needs to be overthrown? How are we supposed to get our guns back and ready?

Our heroes in the military are sworn to uphold the constitution, not the government.  In the case of a corrupt government that abandons Democracy they will restore order and the police will side with their local communities against any abuse.  Sometimes the police or armed forces make mistakes and it has led to deaths and civil unrest, but as institutions their records are extremely strong.
newbie
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August 27, 2012, 08:40:06 PM
Quote
You missed a key point.  Only a completely insane individual would pull a gun in a public place if he knew at least 50% of the individuals around him were armed and knew how to use it safely.  

And yet this guy pointed a gun straight at two armed police officers and isn't crazy as far as I know.  Adding extra guns to the scenario just makes it more dangerous.  The national gun control method has been proven to work well in practice and is the best way to go. 
What if the government becomes corrupt and unresponsive to its citizens and needs to be overthrown? How are we supposed to get our guns back and ready?
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August 27, 2012, 08:36:22 PM
Quote
You missed a key point.  Only a completely insane individual would pull a gun in a public place if he knew at least 50% of the individuals around him were armed and knew how to use it safely.  

And yet this guy pointed a gun straight at two armed police officers and isn't crazy as far as I know.  Adding extra guns to the scenario just makes it more dangerous.  The national gun control method has been proven to work well in practice and is the best way to go.  

I'm aware there are bad apples among the police, but they are generally heroes of the community who train hard and do their best to protect us all and enforce the laws the government we voted for has written. 
legendary
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August 27, 2012, 08:34:33 PM
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Cops just injured 9 people in New York with their arms. You're implying some dim-witted government employee can do better than a private citizen.

Yes, police officers are much more worthy of trust with guns.  Anyone forced to shoot because someone pointed a gun at them on a crowded street runs the risk of hitting others.  And if multiple people in the crowd try to stop the shooter and they aren't in uniform they run the risk of confusing each other for the shooter and making the situation even worse. Something like that almost happened during the Gabby Giffords incident.  It again sounds like I'm talking to someone who doesn't have much experience with firearms. Most of it was ricochet off the big anti-car bomb planters as far as I know.  The whole situation could have been avoided had the murderer they were confronting not had access to a handgun in the first place, of course.

However, as I mentioned the ideal scenario is that cops don't have them either aside from very special circumstances like in England.

You missed a key point.  Only a completely insane individual would pull a gun in a public place if he knew at least 50% of the individuals around him were armed and knew how to use it safely.  The "gun free" zones are killer havens because the killer knows they are likely to encounter little resistance.

Cops are nothing more than people in uniforms.  There are countless cases of them abusing their power and presumed authority.  I'm not sure I'd trust one with a gun more than I would a law abiding citizen.  The latter is far less likely to abuse his power and only use it for self defense measures. 

M
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August 27, 2012, 08:15:03 PM
Quote
You can probably find a "study" to back up anything you say. The experts in your quote are concerned about damage to the home? Seriously? My house can burn to the ground for all I care, as long as my family is safe.

Well again you are entitled to your opinion but I think I will stick with the experts and scientists on this.

Quote
I would never shoot anyone in the dark (unidentified), and I never said anything of the sort. I said I could manoeuvre through my house in the dark, as opposed to any intruder. I know where my family is located, and we've discussed and made plans for home invasion just the same as we've done for fire, etc. The very first thing I would do is secure my family.

You know where you're family is located?  What if someone got up to go to the bathroom or get a midnight snack?  You don't know jack.  You're gonna stop to turn the light on before shooting the armed armored robbers exposing yourself to sudden bright light while you're unable to shoot because you took your hand away but the cold blooded murderer robbers still can?  Dude, you're in a fantasy world.  I hope for your family's sake you start to think this through better.  Gun accidents happen all the time and such irresponsible users are a major reason we need gun control, to protect certain folks from hurting themselves and their families unintentionally.


Cops just injured 9 people in New York with their arms. You're implying some dim-witted government employee can do better than a private citizen.

Yes, police officers are much more worthy of trust with guns.  Anyone forced to shoot because someone pointed a gun at them on a crowded street runs the risk of hitting others.  And if multiple people in the crowd try to stop the shooter and they aren't in uniform they run the risk of confusing each other for the shooter and making the situation even worse. Something like that almost happened during the Gabby Giffords incident.  It again sounds like I'm talking to someone who doesn't have much experience with firearms. Most of it was ricochet off the big anti-car bomb planters as far as I know.  The whole situation could have been avoided had the murderer they were confronting not had access to a handgun in the first place, of course.

However, as I mentioned the ideal scenario is that cops don't have them either aside from very special circumstances like in England.
newbie
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August 27, 2012, 08:07:22 PM
Quote
You can probably find a "study" to back up anything you say. The experts in your quote are concerned about damage to the home? Seriously? My house can burn to the ground for all I care, as long as my family is safe.

Well again you are entitled to your opinion but I think I will stick with the experts and scientists on this.

Quote
I would never shoot anyone in the dark (unidentified), and I never said anything of the sort. I said I could manoeuvre through my house in the dark, as opposed to any intruder. I know where my family is located, and we've discussed and made plans for home invasion just the same as we've done for fire, etc. The very first thing I would do is secure my family.

You know where you're family is located?  What if someone got up to go to the bathroom or get a midnight snack?  You don't know jack.  You're gonna stop to turn the light on before shooting the armed armored robbers exposing yourself to sudden bright light while you're unable to shoot because you took your hand away but the cold blooded murderer robbers still can?  Dude, you're in a fantasy world.  I hope for your family's sake you start to think this through better.  Gun accidents happen all the time and such irresponsible users are a major reason we need gun control, to protect certain folks from hurting themselves and their families unintentionally.


Cops just injured 9 people in New York with their arms. You're implying some dim-witted government employee can do a better job at protecting and possibly saving a home than a private citizen.
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August 27, 2012, 08:05:30 PM
Quote
You can probably find a "study" to back up anything you say. The experts in your quote are concerned about damage to the home? Seriously? My house can burn to the ground for all I care, as long as my family is safe.

Well again you are entitled to your opinion but I think I will stick with the experts and scientists on this.

Quote
I would never shoot anyone in the dark (unidentified), and I never said anything of the sort. I said I could manoeuvre through my house in the dark, as opposed to any intruder. I know where my family is located, and we've discussed and made plans for home invasion just the same as we've done for fire, etc. The very first thing I would do is secure my family.

You know where you're family is located?  What if someone got up to go to the bathroom or get a midnight snack?  You don't know jack.  You're gonna stop to turn the light on before shooting the armed armored robbers exposing yourself to sudden bright light while you're unable to shoot because you took your hand away but the cold blooded murderer robbers still can?  Dude, you're in a fantasy world.  I hope for your family's sake you start to think this through better.  Gun accidents happen all the time and such irresponsible users are a major reason we need gun control, to protect certain folks from hurting themselves and their families unintentionally.
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August 27, 2012, 07:53:04 PM
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All this took was one google search for the term "can cops buy automatic weapons?".

This one looks like it's illegal to do this in cali, but the cops do it anyway.

http://calcoastnews.com/2011/12/peace-officers-buying-and-selling-assault-weapons/

That is referencing "Assault Weapons" which is mostly a made up legal term for scary guns.  The article is talking about semi-automatic weapons.

Quote
The lack of registration became public after a man stole Solomon’s loaded semi-automatic gun from her unlocked car.

It isn't particularly pleasant that a cop may sell such a weapon, but such weapons are available in any gun store so it's not a huge deal.

The question here is about a P90 which is a fully automatic sub-machinegun of the type banned by previous laws, not the assault weapons ban.  You are not googling very well and you don't seem to have any understanding of guns or gun law.  That is a bad thing both for gun supporters and gun control advocates.  It just muddies up the conversation.

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I'm not finding directly applicable data on actual full auto weapons, but this is loosely related...

"Q: Are SAWs and LCAFDs marked “Restricted law enforcement/government use only” or “For export only” now legal to sell to civilians in the United States?
Yes. SAWs and LCAFDs are no longer prohibited. Therefore, firearms with the restrictive markings are legal to transfer to civilians in the United States, and it is legal for non-prohibited civilians to possess them. All civilians may possess LCAFDs."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/saws-and-lcafds.html

Again, the P90 question has nothing to do with semi-auto weapons.  You can easily buy a semi-auto P90 if you want.

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I can't find any current data on an import ban for automatic weapons, not even on teh BATF site.  Are you sure you are not thinking of the assault weapons ban?  That has expired.

No, you are confused as all hell.

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Gun control is impossible and gun control advocates aren't even striving for that.

And yet the gun control on fully automatic weapons worked.  And gun control works in England making crime far less deadly.  I'm sympathetic to arguments that gun rights are a freedom worthy of protection, though I disagree with it, but the argument that you can't control guns has no basis in reality.
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
August 27, 2012, 07:30:06 PM
I agree with your point earlier. I just don't think going after dealers will work, even if you only want to hold them liable/accountable. We can only punish gun owners, and even then only AFTER they reveal their gun ownership.

Well, it's much easier to catch bad guy owners than merchants, that's true. But most people don't really like operating in the black market. It's risky, your clientele tends to be assholes, and most importantly, you have to hide it. If you can be quite profitable in the white market, and the risk of loss from black market transactions exceeds the cost of due diligence, then we can expect to see very few black market merchants. So we have three options: Increase the profit of white market business, increase the cost and risk associated with black market transactions, or reduce the cost of due diligence. The internet is doing a pretty good job of reducing the cost of due diligence, and by removing restrictions on weapons, you would reduce it even further, and also increase the profit of white-market business by moving more business into the white.

Hey, imagine that. Fewer laws, fewer criminals.
legendary
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August 27, 2012, 07:01:21 PM
Gun control is impossible and gun control advocates aren't even striving for that. They want a subset of the population to control things with guns.

Bingo!!

+1

M
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August 27, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
5) Unless you don't care what they'll use it for as long as you get paid, in which case you'll sell to anyone who wants one. Free market and all. There are plenty of criminals, so I'm sure you can make a good living catering their needs.
Oh, certainly. Until you get tracked down by people ready and willing to hold you accountable for those actions. Then you're in trouble.

If tracking them down was easy, then the Armory would still be in business.

I never said it would be easy. But your statement just proves a point I made earlier. We can't stop it from happening now. If the bad guys can get them, why prevent the good guys?

I agree with your point earlier. I just don't think going after dealers will work, even if you only want to hold them liable/accountable. We can only punish gun owners, and even then only AFTER they reveal their gun ownership.
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
August 27, 2012, 06:29:14 PM
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August 27, 2012, 06:19:36 PM
5) Unless you don't care what they'll use it for as long as you get paid, in which case you'll sell to anyone who wants one. Free market and all. There are plenty of criminals, so I'm sure you can make a good living catering their needs.
Oh, certainly. Until you get tracked down by people ready and willing to hold you accountable for those actions. Then you're in trouble.

If tracking them down was easy, then the Armory would still be in business.

I never said it would be easy. But your statement just proves a point I made earlier. We can't stop it from happening now. If the bad guys can get them, why prevent the good guys?
legendary
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Strength in numbers
August 27, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
SoaB, I messed up, I'm no gun control advocate.

Gun control is impossible and gun control advocates aren't even striving for that. They want a subset of the population to control things with guns.
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August 27, 2012, 05:53:05 PM
5) Unless you don't care what they'll use it for as long as you get paid, in which case you'll sell to anyone who wants one. Free market and all. There are plenty of criminals, so I'm sure you can make a good living catering their needs.
Oh, certainly. Until you get tracked down by people ready and willing to hold you accountable for those actions. Then you're in trouble.

If tracking them down was easy, then the Armory would still be in business.
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
August 27, 2012, 04:06:52 PM
1) Yeah, that does sound reasonable. I might have to actually pay a few relatives then. I wonder if that brings the dead back.
No, it does not. That's why a nuclear bomb makes such a horrible self-defense weapon. I'm glad we've come to that agreement.

2) So threat isn't subjective? Really? When an armed man enters a room, everyone will perceive this the same?
No, threat is not subjective. Being armed is not a threat. Pulling that weapon and pointing it at someone is a threat.

3) No, you've told me what you think. I don't accept your premise. I assume you wouldn't accept my view that any armed man in my vicinity threatens me. That's why I have my vest. I'm pointing my gun back at them.
I just want to empty my clip at a specific spot. He's at fault for lying around exactly where I want to do that. Same idea as the one you sported. He should just move if he doesn't want to get hit.
No, if you hit someone when you empty your clip at a specific spot, that's on you. If he hits someone when he shoots at the targets across the park, he's liable for that. You're not "pointing your gun back at" the little old lady down the street, or any of the other people in the vicinity who don't know you're even there, or even anyone in the vicinity not actually pointing a gun at you. You're just pointing your gun at them. It's not granny's fault you're afraid of a piece of metal in someone's pocket.

4) That the same thing you say with a "desert eagle" on your hip. So a gun is a threat now in your opinion?
As I have said numerous times, a holstered pistol isn't threatening anyone. Nor is a disarmed bomb. An armed bomb, or a drawn and pointed pistol, however is threatening people. Are you tired of digging, yet?

5) Unless you don't care what they'll use it for as long as you get paid, in which case you'll sell to anyone who wants one. Free market and all. There are plenty of criminals, so I'm sure you can make a good living catering their needs.
Oh, certainly. Until you get tracked down by people ready and willing to hold you accountable for those actions. Then you're in trouble.
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August 27, 2012, 03:28:36 PM
1) I did fight back against him, others just got in the way. If he hurts somebody else as a result of his attack on me, that's not my fault.
True. if he hurts someone while attacking you, that's his fault. But if you hurt someone while fighting back, that's on you.

2)  Actually in that situation you can't. Ask anyone experienced in hand to hand combat. They might "feel" threatened by my nuke, but that doesn't mean they're actually being threatened. Are those feelings enough to infringe on my right to bear arms? And what kind of weak ass argument is that? "They can't defend themselves against a nuke". That's the point. Or does everyone have to walk around with tiny guns that do minimal damage. What's the point of a weapon people can defend themselves from?
Seriously, you're just making yourself look like a fool here. They don't "feel" threatened, they don't even know you're there. That's the point. You're threatening with death people who don't know you, haven't met you, and certainly aren't threatening you.

3) I disagree. I'm putting them at risk. I'm ok with that.
Ah, semantics. Ok, so then I'm not shooting at him. He just happens to lie at the exact spot on the ground that I was going to shoot at. He's at fault for lying around in my shooting spot. Problem solved then. No need for defense. Funny thing is, that spot actually moves with him.
No, you are threatening them. I've explained that already.
Sorry, but then you can't say you were defending your family, since that spot on the ground didn't do anything to threaten them. Either way, you're responsible for your actions.

4) Says you. The reason that you don't point a gun at anybody is to reduce the risk of accidental shootings. I'm OK with putting you at risk. "Give me your money or I shoot" is a threat. "Bang! Whoopsie, does it hurt" isn't.
Likewise, "Don't fuck with me or I'll blow you away" is a threat. And that is the stated purpose of your vest. Thus, it is a threat. Keep digging that hole.

5) That. Or hiding the fact that they sold it. Whichever is cheaper. This is supposed to be a totally free market, so I'm assuming there will be people willing to deal only with criminals. I sense a new policy here. Are you going to make somebody else responsible for one mans actions? Is the gun manufacturer/seller at fault for what the buyer does with it? Should the seller pay restitution to a victims family if the robber didn't have enough?

Everyone's responsible for their own actions. That includes making sure you don't sell something to someone who will misuse it.

1) Yeah, that does sound reasonable. I might have to actually pay a few relatives then. I wonder if that brings the dead back.

2) So threat isn't subjective? Really? When an armed man enters a room, everyone will perceive this the same?

3) No, you've told me what you think. I don't accept your premise. I assume you wouldn't accept my view that any armed man in my vicinity threatens me. That's why I have my vest. I'm pointing my gun back at them.
I just want to empty my clip at a specific spot. He's at fault for lying around exactly where I want to do that. Same idea as the one you sported. He should just move if he doesn't want to get hit.

4) That the same thing you say with a "desert eagle" on your hip. So a gun is a threat now in your opinion?

5) Unless you don't care what they'll use it for as long as you get paid, in which case you'll sell to anyone who wants one. Free market and all. There are plenty of criminals, so I'm sure you can make a good living catering their needs.
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