Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 9.

AntiCap

newbie

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Quote from: myrkul on August 20, 2012, 03:34:18 AM

OK, see, now you've gone fully off the "criminal safety" deep end.

If the criminal is so scared, maybe he should try earning his money, rather than taking it by force?

I don't care about the criminals safety. Ok, a little bit then, but mostly the victims. Even a criminal should get the opportunity to better himself, and until he does we should try to mitigate the damage he does, and keep him away from society until we have given him the tools to coexist with it. That includes helping him find a way to earn his own money.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 20, 2012, 03:24:34 AM

Quote from: TheButterZone on August 20, 2012, 02:55:52 AM

Well, I have seen criminals in prison saying they were scared shitless of armed victims, and that they sought softer targets if they knew their victims could defend themselves. So shove your pro-criminal safety BS where the sun don't shine, because that's the only place it can survive.

Very eloquent.
Yes, robbers seek the easiest target. The ones that aren't a threat. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is your solution. Do you honestly think that a robber won't need any money if people around him are armed, or do you think he will work out a way to neutralize the threat that his intended victims now pose?

What robber would you rather meet? A confident one that believes that he can take your money and get away safely, or one that is scared beyond belief that you might be armed and could shoot him at any moment?

OK, see, now you've gone fully off the "criminal safety" deep end.

If the criminal is so scared, maybe he should try earning his money, rather than taking it by force?

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: TheButterZone on August 20, 2012, 02:55:52 AM

Well, I have seen criminals in prison saying they were scared shitless of armed victims, and that they sought softer targets if they knew their victims could defend themselves. So shove your pro-criminal safety BS where the sun don't shine, because that's the only place it can survive.

Very eloquent.
Yes, robbers seek the easiest target. The ones that aren't a threat. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is your solution. Do you honestly think that a robber won't need any money if people around him are armed, or do you think he will work out a way to neutralize the threat that his intended victims now pose?

What robber would you rather meet? A confident one that believes that he can take your money and get away safely, or one that is scared beyond belief that you might be armed and could shoot him at any moment?

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: TheButterZone on August 20, 2012, 02:55:52 AM

Well, I have seen criminals in prison saying they were scared shitless of armed victims, and that they sought softer targets if they knew their victims could defend themselves. So shove your pro-criminal safety BS where the sun don't shine, because that's the only place it can survive.

This.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

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RIP Mommy

Well, I have seen criminals in prison saying they were scared shitless of armed victims, and that they sought softer targets if they knew their victims could defend themselves. So shove your pro-criminal safety BS where the sun don't shine, because that's the only place it can survive.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 05:51:32 PM

There's a video in the Guns thread, I think, of just such an action. They go in with, if I remember correctly, a shotgun, and come out with several more guns and whatever was in the register. Ballsy move, but had the clerk been armed, and proper security measures been followed, it would never have happened.

The doughnut shop example still stands, though.

That's the idea. Though the events will still happen, if the assailants are desperate enough, and when they do, they'll be bloodier, that very bloodiness will deter most of them from happening in the first place. Reducing the level of desperation in the society is important too (but isn't really relevant to a gun control discussion).

Well, no, the doughnut example won't stand either I'm afraid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa-wfOo36qY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHg56J3yhLQ

I agree that the best thing to do is to reduce desperation levels, and also that it's not relevant here.
Have you ever had anything to do with criminals? I don't mean victimized, but worked with them? I have, by association, done that. They are not generally deterred by consequences, since few of them plan that far, or if they do they are convinced that they will come out on top. The assault will be bloodier, and that's about it. Best case nobody is seriously hurt. Worst case someone lost a son/daughter/father/mother.

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: BitcoinINV on August 19, 2012, 10:29:10 AM

This is all I have to say

I assume you aren't familiar with soviet union. There were plenty of armed factions fighting it.... And still didn't help a bit.

During WW2 in Ukraine there were plenty of ukrainian freedom fighters, in the end they were all crushed: and they had access to weapons, plenty of them. Guns cannot protect against an army, not 60 years ago, not today. And that picture exactly what happened to UNA, OUN and others.

The organized mobs are much stronger than the disorganized ones. The only thing that crushed Soviets was greed.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 05:51:32 PM

There's a video in the Guns thread, I think, of just such an action. They go in with, if I remember correctly, a shotgun, and come out with several more guns and whatever was in the register. Ballsy move, but had the clerk been armed, and proper security measures been followed, it would never have happened.

Even that's apples and oranges. If you're not able and willing to protect your merchandise or your life by any means necessary, your merchandise will be taken, and you have to pray they don't load your merchandise and take your life.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

There's a video in the Guns thread, I think, of just such an action. They go in with, if I remember correctly, a shotgun, and come out with several more guns and whatever was in the register. Ballsy move, but had the clerk been armed, and proper security measures been followed, it would never have happened.

The doughnut shop example still stands, though.

Quote from: AntiCap on August 19, 2012, 11:57:59 AM

A mugger that sees an armed person will hopefully not attack

That's the idea. Though the events will still happen, if the assailants are desperate enough, and when they do, they'll be bloodier, that very bloodiness will deter most of them from happening in the first place. Reducing the level of desperation in the society is important too (but isn't really relevant to a gun control discussion).

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: AntiCap on August 19, 2012, 03:12:24 PM

Quote from: MoonShadow on August 19, 2012, 02:48:59 PM

It doesn't really work that way. Have you ever heard of someone robbing a gun store at gunpoint?

Or a doughnut shop with three cop cars parked out front?

Yes, yes I have. http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/87598762.html
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_fefbf848-af8b-5be4-b41d-2d3aaec10d77.html

However that is obviously not the most common crime. You would only rob a gun store if you needed guns, not cash.

Notice he said AT GUNPOINT.

It appears both links you provided were pure strong-arm robberies. In other words, hand to hand combat only. Both attributable to lack of preparation on the part of the victims. They let the perps close distance and apparently because the perps were unarmed, they felt they couldn't shoot. Even an unarmed robbery of a gun shop justifies homicide in self-defense (assuming the perps end up being rare fatalities from handgun wounds), because if you don't neutralize the threat, criminals get the guns and can kill you and god knows how many others.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: MoonShadow on August 19, 2012, 02:48:59 PM

It doesn't really work that way. Have you ever heard of someone robbing a gun store at gunpoint?

Or a doughnut shop with three cop cars parked out front?

Yes, yes I have. http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/87598762.html
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_fefbf848-af8b-5be4-b41d-2d3aaec10d77.html

However that is obviously not the most common crime. You would only rob a gun store if you needed guns, not cash.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

Quote from: MoonShadow on August 19, 2012, 02:48:59 PM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 19, 2012, 11:57:59 AM

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 10:12:54 AM

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

Except that's not how most rapes happen. Read a bit more about it. Uncle Bob starts with a few innocent things that eventually progresses. The colleague takes advantage of someone that had too much to drink, or changed her mind when they reached the bedroom.
A mugger that sees an armed person will hopefully not attack, or they will see the threat and act to neutralize it first. All depending on the level of desperation. Same goes for the shopkeeper. Shoot first and get money later. In any case the assault will be more violent, not less.

It doesn't really work that way. Have you ever heard of someone robbing a gun store at gunpoint?

Or a doughnut shop with three cop cars parked out front?

Key word missing: successfully.

BitcoinINV

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

Quote from: MoonShadow on August 19, 2012, 02:48:59 PM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 19, 2012, 11:57:59 AM

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 10:12:54 AM

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

Except that's not how most rapes happen. Read a bit more about it. Uncle Bob starts with a few innocent things that eventually progresses. The colleague takes advantage of someone that had too much to drink, or changed her mind when they reached the bedroom.
A mugger that sees an armed person will hopefully not attack, or they will see the threat and act to neutralize it first. All depending on the level of desperation. Same goes for the shopkeeper. Shoot first and get money later. In any case the assault will be more violent, not less.

It doesn't really work that way. Have you ever heard of someone robbing a gun store at gunpoint?

Or a doughnut shop with three cop cars parked out front?

Lmfao thats a great way to put it

MoonShadow

legendary

Activity: 1708

Merit: 1010

Quote from: AntiCap on August 19, 2012, 11:57:59 AM

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 10:12:54 AM

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

Except that's not how most rapes happen. Read a bit more about it. Uncle Bob starts with a few innocent things that eventually progresses. The colleague takes advantage of someone that had too much to drink, or changed her mind when they reached the bedroom.
A mugger that sees an armed person will hopefully not attack, or they will see the threat and act to neutralize it first. All depending on the level of desperation. Same goes for the shopkeeper. Shoot first and get money later. In any case the assault will be more violent, not less.

It doesn't really work that way. Have you ever heard of someone robbing a gun store at gunpoint?

Or a doughnut shop with three cop cars parked out front?

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 10:12:54 AM

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

Except that's not how most rapes happen. Read a bit more about it. Uncle Bob starts with a few innocent things that eventually progresses. The colleague takes advantage of someone that had too much to drink, or changed her mind when they reached the bedroom.
A mugger that sees an armed person will hopefully not attack, or they will see the threat and act to neutralize it first. All depending on the level of desperation. Same goes for the shopkeeper. Shoot first and get money later. In any case the assault will be more violent, not less.

As for the home invasion, well, I got scolded earlier for using anecdotal evidence by someone on this forum. Is that something that goes both ways?

BitcoinINV

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

This is all I have to say

drakahn

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 10:12:54 AM

" As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

The police here would have him charged with murder and pushed for trial as an adult... The courts would have (hopefully) let him go free, I know of one story of a guy getting cleared after he shot an intruder (with a gun he wasn't meant to have), We have gun control, but also a legal obligation to do anything to protect ourselves, that anything part is the kicker, reasonable force when your life is under threat, is deadly force, But we are not allowed to have weapons to help with that.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: AntiCap on August 19, 2012, 09:26:49 AM

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 07:37:30 AM

The majority of gun violence occurs between the violent criminals because that's the only situation where both sides have guns. True, the shopkeep doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over the cash when the criminal started waving around a pistol. The mugging victim doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over his watch and wallet as soon as the criminal pulled the gun. The home invasion robbery victims don't get shot, but that's because they cowered in a corner as soon as the criminals shoved shotguns in their faces. The rape victim doesn't get shot, but that's because she didn't resist when the rapist pointed a gun at her.

There's no violence, if you don't resist. Doesn't mean there wasn't a crime.

I still think there's violence, even if somebody doesn't resist, however ...

...the shopkeeper doesn't get shot because he handed over the money. That's a good thing, right? Nobody shot. If bullets start flying there's probably going to be at least one fatality. Same with the mugging victim, or home invasion (how common is that, really?). And unless you're about to shoot uncle Bob, or your co-worker at the Christmas party, or any other acquaintance, guns don't really help much against rape either. You do know that rapes by strangers are rare, right?

I do see a lot of benefits to guns, just not in the hands of every man, woman and child on the planet.

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

BitcoinINV

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/gallery?section=news/local&id=8604253&photo=1

Read that they got shot and did not do a damn thing, now if they had a gun to protect themselves they could be alive today.

AntiCap

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: myrkul on August 19, 2012, 07:37:30 AM

The majority of gun violence occurs between the violent criminals because that's the only situation where both sides have guns. True, the shopkeep doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over the cash when the criminal started waving around a pistol. The mugging victim doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over his watch and wallet as soon as the criminal pulled the gun. The home invasion robbery victims don't get shot, but that's because they cowered in a corner as soon as the criminals shoved shotguns in their faces. The rape victim doesn't get shot, but that's because she didn't resist when the rapist pointed a gun at her.

There's no violence, if you don't resist. Doesn't mean there wasn't a crime.

I still think there's violence, even if somebody doesn't resist, however ...

...the shopkeeper doesn't get shot because he handed over the money. That's a good thing, right? Nobody shot. If bullets start flying there's probably going to be at least one fatality. Same with the mugging victim, or home invasion (how common is that, really?). And unless you're about to shoot uncle Bob, or your co-worker at the Christmas party, or any other acquaintance, guns don't really help much against rape either. You do know that rapes by strangers are rare, right?

I do see a lot of benefits to guns, just not in the hands of every man, woman and child on the planet.

Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 9. (Read 17920 times)