Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates - page 2. (Read 17866 times)

I'm not really trying to "prove" anything, but it does show how much culture matters.  And cali is not the most restrictive from a legal perspective, that honor goes to Wisconsin, Illinois or the District of Columbia, all of which (until very recently) are no-issue states.  Cali is a may-issue state, but has more restrictive 'valid reasons' than Liechtenstein according to the link I referenced, because Cali doesn't honor "personal protection" as a legitimate cause unless you're a member of the state justice apparatus already, such as a prosecutor.  Granted, I could get a shotgun in Cali for inside my own home, and I can't determine if that is the case in Liechtenstein, but all of these comparisons are apples to oranges, due to variations in local culture and demographics.  Both San Fransico & Detroit are very liberal politcally, and have very restrictive gun regulations, with populations well in excess of Leichtenstin; but while San Fran is about as dangerous as my own mid-sized mid-eastern city (which is to say, not very dangerous) Detroit is one of the most dangerous places on Earth.  There is no definitive evidence that gun control has any non-neglible effect on crime, and all the evidence in the world that it does have an effect on the legal availability of firearms and only the legal availablilty of firearms.  We can both produce plenty of studies that confirm our biases, no doubt.  What you guys seem to lack ability to do is justify why?  By what logic do you guys justify subjugating my daughter to her armed rapist?  Maybe gun control would exchange the rapist's primary weapon from a handgun to a legth of iron pipe or a knife, but what consolation is that?  So that I can say at her funeral, "at least he didn't shoot her"?  Even if gun control laws did suppress overall crime rates, who are you to deny my daughter her basic human right of self-preservation?

Bullshit.

In a thread full of cans of worms, that's a big one. I think we'd all rather leave that one closed.

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.

No. I somewhat padded my answer, and I wanted to see if you gonna fall for it too.  I can't recall a state that is more restrictive than Liechtenstein.

Liechtenstein is about as restrictive as California, which is like the most restrictive state. You can try to argue about open carry, but Liechtenstein has restrictions also, and California allows open carry in unincorporated areas.

40 states are shall issue.
11 states are may issue, with few shall issue in practice.

I am not sure what are you trying to prove to me? That gun control reduces crime?

edit:

I am out of here. We can compare EU countries with their low crime rates to US crime rates all day long, EU guns laws are much more restrictive than here. US is a melting pot of many ethnicities, while EU countries (especially smaller ones) have more or less monolithic cultures. Comparing them is not a good idea.

Notablely less restrictive than the Swiss, which is a country with one of the highest rates of gun  possesion in the world.  It's not the restrictiveness of guns laws that is the determinate factor, but the availabilty of same.  The core flaw in gun control logic is that laws passed by governments automaticly have the intended effects on the availabilty of firearems.  The Swiss deliberately arm thier entire population, teach them to use them, and then expect them to abid the publicly defined use of them.  This is the very definition of "a well regulated militia".  For that matter, the framers of the Constitution got the idea from the Swiss.  But if you think that, should some violent nutjub takes his weapon into the twon square and stars popping pedestrians, that the guy who opened his ammo box and shot that nutjob has to worry about being prosecuted for opening his sealed box, you're deluded.

But less restrictive than ten, no?  Do you think that supports your position?

Fig fail. A country that is more restrictive than 40 states. LOL

Liechtenstein

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/liechtenstein

http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/naylor1.1.1.html

So what it is? I don't recall any other country with 0 murder rate. It should be tiny enough, after Monaco there are like Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino.

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.

Uh Vatican? The smallest country? Monaco after?

Vampire, I don't think that you know what a militia is.

Quick quiz, gun banners!  Which European nation fits this description?

"...carrying a firearm in plain view in a public place is allowed without a permit, with some restrictions..."

"...an understanding of firearms safety and the law, tested in a theoretical and/or practial training course is not required for a firearms license"
emphasis is mine

"...private possesion of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under license..."

"...annual homicides by firearms total

2008:  1
2007:  0
2006:  0
2005:  0"

No, that was not per 100,000 or some such, that was total.

This nation would be considered a "may issue" state if it was here in the US, per this data point...

"Applicants for a gun owners license in (redacted) are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection, security"

Additionally, this particular nation is consider to be by some to be the closest example of a libertarian state in our modern world, including by hardcore libertarians such as Lew Rockwell fellows.

No cheating, google searching or wikipedia is not allowed.  Any guesses?

WTF? Canadian's culture is dramatically different? Wow. I never heard that one before? Well so who has the closer culture to USA than Canada? I really want to know!


May be should stop reading silly websites?


Outside of army and police, and settlers that live in West Bank - guns are illegal in Israel. Mostly because that arabs wouldn't buy them. Again, vampire is right.


Really? There are plenty militarized cops in NYC, same as in Israel. Israel doesn't have militia.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2011/4/8/1302255691715/NYPD-Patrol-Wall-Street-i-007.jpg

Canada is an unfair comparison.  The culture is so dramticly different as to make any direct comparisons difficult.  Which is true with pretty much every nation, so I don't put much stock in such comparisons anyway, but I used that to point out the fundamental error of Rarity's premise.  Gun control does not lead to reduced incidents of violent crime within that culture.  In every nation that has an outright ban on civilian owned handguns, the rate of all forms of violent crime have increased over a period of years since.  I'm not trying to compare Britain to the US, I'm comparing Britain before and after.


Are you really kidding here?  The Swiss have a national milita that trains annually with firearms that they are required by law to keep in their homes with ammunition.  That would be every single adult & able bodied male citizen between 18 and 45.  Do you really think that the Swiss need CCW?  Do you think that an intruder is going to think "hey, they can't shoot me because their magazines are sealed"?


Another milita nation, not a anti-gun culture.  The only nation in the world that requires all women to serve in the military & in combat positions.  Again, CCW is inmaterial in Israel.


Laws, maybe.  That's debatable.  Gun culture, no.  LEt me see a NYC militia march in the parade some time, and if they aren't booed I'll concede you might have a point here.

@Moonshadow clean your table up and make sure that you verify the sources.

I can easily access FBI stats vs lets say Canadian stats.

edit:

Swiss don't have ammo for the semi auto rifles (and when they had a clip, it was sealed only for war), CCW is impossible to get.
Israel doesn't allow CCW also.. And pretty much an anti gun country.

Both of the countries are similar to NYC, in terms of gun laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Denmark 0.9
France 1.1
Israel 2.1
USA 4.2

Then let's please revisit one of my links that you obviously didn't bother to read..

http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

     4. Fact: British authorities routinely underreport crime statistics. Comparing statistics between different nations can be quite difficult since foreign officials frequently use different standards in compiling crime statistics.

 
        * Underreporting murder data: British crime reporting tactics keep murder rates artificially low. "Suppose that three men kill a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder, but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead), charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts as nothing at all. 'With such differences in reporting criteria, comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a sham,' [a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary] concludes."16

    5. Fact: Many nations with stricter gun control laws have violence rates that are equal to, or greater than, that of the United States. Consider the following rates:


    High Gun
    Ownership Countries
       

    Low Gun
    Ownership Countries

    Country
       

    Suicide
       

    Homicide
       

    Total*
       

    Country
       

    Suicide
       

    Homicide
       

    Total*
    Switzerland    

    21.4
       

    2.7
       

    24.1
       Denmark    

    22.3
       

    4.9
       

    27.2
    U.S.    

    11.6
       

    7.4
       

    19.0
       France    

    20.8
       

    1.1
       

    21.9
    Israel    

    6.5
       

    1.4
       

    7.9
       Japan**    

    16.7
       

    0.6
       

    17.3

     

    * The figures listed in the table are the rates per 100,000 people.
    ** Suicide figures for Japan also include many homicides.
    Source for table: U.S. figures for 1996 are taken from the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. and FBI Uniform Crime Reports. The rest of the table is taken from the UN 1996 Demographic Yearbook (1998), cited at http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html.

We've been down this road before. I'm willing to let my statement go, if you (and Rarity) will stop claiming that gun laws stop criminals from using guns.

Uh that's BS.

Correlation isn't causation. For an example, in NYC for the same time period: 1982-2005, the crime rate is down 57%.

Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Stop making shit up.  My claim is that gun control lowers fatalities from crime, not that it reduces the rate of crime.  That is a far more complex problem.