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Topic: [POLL] Trump Impeachment Poll: Who's Fault Is It? (Read 2194 times)

legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
Relevant meme:

-snip-

True story.

I know. It's a big problem that all the nut-job psychos are always on the side of the ultra-rich Republicans/Conservatives/right-wingers.
There were plenty of people wanting to assassinate Obama because of outrageous policies like providing basic healthcare to poor people. You know, human rights stuff.
But no-one wants to assassinate Trump, because all the gun-totin' crazies are big Trump fans. Yee-haw.

Funny how all the gun crime seems to happen in Democrat controlled districts if all the crazy right wingers are the violent ones.

Well, except for the mass shootings, which are done pretty exclusively by right-wing 8chan-ing incels. 8chan changed their name recently... Wonder why they did that...
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
Now that Trump has been impeached, who are conservatives blaming? And how closely does it mirror the results of this poll?

"House Democrats" and "Deep State" seem to be their favorites, which is close enough to the poll since they obviously couldn't possibly blame Trump.

According to the poll results, I myself as am equally liable for Trump's impeachment, albeit the Lizard People are slightly more so.

Its true that I was working as a social media disruptor to spread misinformation about Trump's phone call, but I was not alone. I manned a batch of 1,000 Facebook accounts while George Soros manned another 1,000. Working day and night we pushed the agenda of there existing a "quid pro quo." Our results were eagerly broadcast by the Fake News.

We will both just say we are patsies though if we should be arrested, hopefully before we are assassinated by Hillary Clinton, who of course works for the Lizard People.

Probably the littlest known fact is that Donald Trump was personally orchestrating his own impeachment the whole time.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Now that Trump has been impeached, who are conservatives blaming? And how closely does it mirror the results of this poll?

"House Democrats" and "Deep State" seem to be their favorites, which is close enough to the poll since they obviously couldn't possibly blame Trump.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
Well, the results are coming in.

So far we know for sure that 15 people wasted their vote in this poll.

Now that Trump has been impeached, who are conservatives blaming? And how closely does it mirror the results of this poll?
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
Well, except for the mass shootings, which are done pretty exclusively by right-wing 8chan-ing incels. 8chan changed their name recently... Wonder why they did that...

FBI & DOJ Statistics > claims about a post on 8chan


Puzzles me.

Because the only way to make forward progress is to correctly understand things. But if that is made difficult or impossible by way of alternative facts and smokescreens, then real world problems cannot be solved.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Looks like Ocala, FL is #1.  Pretty sure they are very, very red.

Most big cities are blue, so it would make sense that most gun violence in cities with 250k+ people would be blue.

https://i.gyazo.com/5091762cd717bec0e77551e6b46b489d.png

So your argument is, lets not count the blue cities because they are the biggest? Most of the gun crime happens in Democrat controlled areas. Your one cherry picked city doesn't negate all the blue surrounding it.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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Looks like Ocala, FL is #1.  Pretty sure they are very, very red.

Most big cities are blue, so it would make sense that most gun violence in cities with 250k+ people would be blue.

legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
FBI & DOJ Statistics > claims about a post on 8chan

Funny how all the gun crime seems to happen in Democrat controlled districts if all the crazy right wingers are the violent ones.


Do the FBI and DOJ have a statistic on where all the gun crime seems to happen?





https://www.thetrace.org/2016/10/chicago-gun-violence-per-capita-rate/

Looks pretty blue to me. There is more if you want to argue the point.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
FBI & DOJ Statistics > claims about a post on 8chan

Funny how all the gun crime seems to happen in Democrat controlled districts if all the crazy right wingers are the violent ones.


Do the FBI and DOJ have a statistic on where all the gun crime seems to happen?
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Well, except for the mass shootings, which are done pretty exclusively by right-wing 8chan-ing incels. 8chan changed their name recently... Wonder why they did that...

FBI & DOJ Statistics > claims about a post on 8chan

legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Relevant meme:

-snip-

True story.

I know. It's a big problem that all the nut-job psychos are always on the side of the ultra-rich Republicans/Conservatives/right-wingers.
There were plenty of people wanting to assassinate Obama because of outrageous policies like providing basic healthcare to poor people. You know, human rights stuff.
But no-one wants to assassinate Trump, because all the gun-totin' crazies are big Trump fans. Yee-haw.

Funny how all the gun crime seems to happen in Democrat controlled districts if all the crazy right wingers are the violent ones.
sr. member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 354
Relevant meme:

-snip-

True story.

I know. It's a big problem that all the nut-job psychos are always on the side of the ultra-rich Republicans/Conservatives/right-wingers.
There were plenty of people wanting to assassinate Obama because of outrageous policies like providing basic healthcare to poor people. You know, human rights stuff.
But no-one wants to assassinate Trump, because all the gun-totin' crazies are big Trump fans. Yee-haw.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
Relevant meme:



True story.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
Are we on the same page at least that politically appointed federal employees (not including the President) can be fired for any reason at any time, without due process?

They can be fired by their boss (e.g. by the President when applicable) but they can also be subject to impeachment - yes, a cabinet member can be impeached - so not sure how that analogy helps here. These are two different ways to remove someone from a job.

Extending this to the President's job basically means the he can be voted out by his "boss" (the people) or be impeached. Voters don't really engage in any due process, they can vote any way they want for any reason or no reason at all, so that's fine. But the House is not President's boss so they have to follow the constitutionally prescribed impeachment procedure, which to be fair is sufficiently vague for everyone to find something to complain about. But there is at least the "high crimes and misdemeanors" thing.



Found an interesting paper that goes into detail of exactly what we've been debating : High Crimes Without Law.

Part 1 goes into detail of Johnsons Senate Trial.  During the Trial, his lawyer based his entire defense on one of the same arguments that TECSHARE and Spendulus have been making, and it worked:  

Quote
nullum crimen sine lege “There can be no crime, there can be no misdemeanor without a law.”
Quote
The principle of no crime without law has been described as one of the most “widely held value-judgments in the entire history of human thought.”

Part 2 is Modern Counterarguments to the idea of nullum crimen sine lege

The consensus among law nerds over the past 150 years is pretty clear that when the constitution was written, the founders would not have considered nullum crimen sine lege to be a valid defense during the Senate Trial of an impeached official.

One point I hadn't heard or considered before was that 'high crimes' are crimes naughty actions that only a President (or someone in power) can be held accountable for.  If a civilian did the same thing, they wouldn't be in any trouble with the government, because it's not against the law.  There is no official extensive list of things a President can be impeached for.  There for, the assumption is that it's up to Congress to decide whether it's naughty enough to remove him from office - not whether or not it's a crime.  

Quote
A high crime is one that can be done only by someone in a unique position of authority, which is political in character, who does things to circumvent justice. The phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors," used together, was a common phrase when the U.S. Constitution was written and did not require any stringent or difficult criteria for determining guilt but meant the opposite. The phrase was historically used to cover a very broad range of crimes.

Quote
The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for non-officials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office. Indeed the offense may not even be a breach of criminal statute.

Another interesting point is that since the Constitution explicitly states that after being impeached/removed, a President can still be charged criminally for the same thing that got him removed.  This contradicts the Double Jeopardy clause, unless being convicted by the Senate isn't the same as being convicted of a crime.


And then you get to the end of the paper and realize none of it even really mattered:

Quote
In the end, however, it doesn’t really matter how logical Benjamin Curtis’s argument may have been considering how often it has been ignored in practice. In the century-and-a-half since 1868, six federal judges have been convicted and removed from office for conduct that wasn’t necessarily a crime when they committed it — a clear violation of Curtis’s conclusion.


That is interesting but really, it has zero relation to my argument about a need for due process.

In fact if you are going to argue for impeaching a President for things that are not a crime, that's all the more reason to require strict due process.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
Are we on the same page at least that politically appointed federal employees (not including the President) can be fired for any reason at any time, without due process?

They can be fired by their boss (e.g. by the President when applicable) but they can also be subject to impeachment - yes, a cabinet member can be impeached - so not sure how that analogy helps here. These are two different ways to remove someone from a job.

Extending this to the President's job basically means the he can be voted out by his "boss" (the people) or be impeached. Voters don't really engage in any due process, they can vote any way they want for any reason or no reason at all, so that's fine. But the House is not President's boss so they have to follow the constitutionally prescribed impeachment procedure, which to be fair is sufficiently vague for everyone to find something to complain about. But there is at least the "high crimes and misdemeanors" thing.



Found an interesting paper that goes into detail of exactly what we've been debating : High Crimes Without Law.

Part 1 goes into detail of Johnsons Senate Trial.  During the Trial, his lawyer based his entire defense on one of the same arguments that TECSHARE and Spendulus have been making, and it worked:  

Quote
nullum crimen sine lege “There can be no crime, there can be no misdemeanor without a law.”
Quote
The principle of no crime without law has been described as one of the most “widely held value-judgments in the entire history of human thought.”

Part 2 is Modern Counterarguments to the idea of nullum crimen sine lege

The consensus among law nerds over the past 150 years is pretty clear that when the constitution was written, the founders would not have considered nullum crimen sine lege to be a valid defense during the Senate Trial of an impeached official.

One point I hadn't heard or considered before was that 'high crimes' are crimes naughty actions that only a President (or someone in power) can be held accountable for.  If a civilian did the same thing, they wouldn't be in any trouble with the government, because it's not against the law.  There is no official extensive list of things a President can be impeached for.  There for, the assumption is that it's up to Congress to decide whether it's naughty enough to remove him from office - not whether or not it's a crime.  

Quote
A high crime is one that can be done only by someone in a unique position of authority, which is political in character, who does things to circumvent justice. The phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors," used together, was a common phrase when the U.S. Constitution was written and did not require any stringent or difficult criteria for determining guilt but meant the opposite. The phrase was historically used to cover a very broad range of crimes.

Quote
The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for non-officials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office. Indeed the offense may not even be a breach of criminal statute.

Another interesting point is that since the Constitution explicitly states that after being impeached/removed, a President can still be charged criminally for the same thing that got him removed.  This contradicts the Double Jeopardy clause, unless being convicted by the Senate isn't the same as being convicted of a crime.


And then you get to the end of the paper and realize none of it even really mattered:

Quote
In the end, however, it doesn’t really matter how logical Benjamin Curtis’s argument may have been considering how often it has been ignored in practice. In the century-and-a-half since 1868, six federal judges have been convicted and removed from office for conduct that wasn’t necessarily a crime when they committed it — a clear violation of Curtis’s conclusion.






legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...

Are we on the same page at least that politically appointed federal employees (not including the President) can be fired for any reason at any time, without due process?

It's relevant because I'm trying to make the point that getting fired without due process is not just a right that every American has.

Yes, I have fired people without due process. And there's a long tradition of a new administration bringing, essentially thousands of new employees in with it, and the old employees giving up their jobs for those new ones.

As for what the House can theoretically do, that's certainly a very broad matter. If they act outside reasonable bounds, the Senate can just basically laugh at what they said or did.

In this case at hand, the people of the USA voted Trump in, so speaking for myself, I see the House as needing to respect due process. The House is not Trump's boss, the people are.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Are we on the same page at least that politically appointed federal employees (not including the President) can be fired for any reason at any time, without due process?

They can be fired by their boss (e.g. by the President when applicable) but they can also be subject to impeachment - yes, a cabinet member can be impeached - so not sure how that analogy helps here. These are two different ways to remove someone from a job.

Extending this to the President's job basically means the he can be voted out by his "boss" (the people) or be impeached. Voters don't really engage in any due process, they can vote any way they want for any reason or no reason at all, so that's fine. But the House is not President's boss so they have to follow the constitutionally prescribed impeachment procedure, which to be fair is sufficiently vague for everyone to find something to complain about. But there is at least the "high crimes and misdemeanors" thing.

legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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Because you are just basically wrong in what you said. Due process is an integral part of many aspects of society. In administrative law, promulgated regulations are required to have extensive comment periods, and if one is assessed a penalty, there is an appeals process (WITH DUE PROCESS). The lack of due process is a valid defense in many matters, taking a simple example, when an individual pays rent.

Or when a civil servant is about to be terminated for cause. His contract most certainly requires due process.

Yes, there are laws in place that make it very difficult to fire a federal employee.  Tons of paperwork, tons of evidence.

Politically appointed federal employees are different though.  They can be fired at any time for pretty much any reason (I'd guess it's still illegal to fire them because of their gender race or religion though).  No due process required since the reason can literally be "i don't like you" or "I disagree with your opinions" or "I want someone else to have your job".  If a non-politically appointed federal employee was fired for any of these reasons, they'd easily win a lawsuit for a very nice pay day.

Due process is a very well understood concept and ingrained in culture, institutions, law, and common law.

Let me know if you want to continue arguing that the President of the United States is not entitled to due process. If you do, please present case history and similar facts. Otherwise I will ignore postings, I don't think your "opinion" matters in something like this.

Yeah, that's what we're discussing right?

Are we on the same page at least that politically appointed federal employees (not including the President) can be fired for any reason at any time, without due process?

It's relevant because I'm trying to make the point that getting fired without due process is not just a right that every American has.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
Because you are just basically wrong in what you said. Due process is an integral part of many aspects of society. In administrative law, promulgated regulations are required to have extensive comment periods, and if one is assessed a penalty, there is an appeals process (WITH DUE PROCESS). The lack of due process is a valid defense in many matters, taking a simple example, when an individual pays rent.

Or when a civil servant is about to be terminated for cause. His contract most certainly requires due process.

Yes, there are laws in place that make it very difficult to fire a federal employee.  Tons of paperwork, tons of evidence.

Politically appointed federal employees are different though.  They can be fired at any time for pretty much any reason (I'd guess it's still illegal to fire them because of their gender race or religion though).  No due process required since the reason can literally be "i don't like you" or "I disagree with your opinions" or "I want someone else to have your job".  If a non-politically appointed federal employee was fired for any of these reasons, they'd easily win a lawsuit for a very nice pay day.

Due process is a very well understood concept and ingrained in culture, institutions, law, and common law.

Let me know if you want to continue arguing that the President of the United States is not entitled to due process. If you do, please present case history and similar facts. Otherwise I will ignore postings, I don't think your "opinion" matters in something like this.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
Because you are just basically wrong in what you said. Due process is an integral part of many aspects of society. In administrative law, promulgated regulations are required to have extensive comment periods, and if one is assessed a penalty, there is an appeals process (WITH DUE PROCESS). The lack of due process is a valid defense in many matters, taking a simple example, when an individual pays rent.

Or when a civil servant is about to be terminated for cause. His contract most certainly requires due process.

Yes, there are laws in place that make it very difficult to fire a federal employee.  Tons of paperwork, tons of evidence.

Politically appointed federal employees are different though.  They can be fired at any time for pretty much any reason (I'd guess it's still illegal to fire them because of their gender race or religion though).  No due process required since the reason can literally be "i don't like you" or "I disagree with your opinions" or "I want someone else to have your job".  If a non-politically appointed federal employee was fired for any of these reasons, they'd easily win a lawsuit for a very nice pay day.
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