Author

Topic: Primedice.com | Since 2013 | Longest Running Crypto Casino | 113 BTC Jackpot! - page 204. (Read 1989287 times)

newbie
Activity: 23
Merit: 0
Understand the issues but I am abit jadedat my experience today.

Setup autoroll with a .002 stop loss at 3x and left to play chess on my cell on another page only to comeback to see max loss did not work and it only stopped because the next bet was over my total amount. Triedchat for help and was told “youmost likely did it wrong”,”stop moaning” and finally was told to contact support.
So I leave a message about being scammed which I have been to this point and expected a reply later today.Come back to check and see no ticket history besides some super hero promo from four weeks ago. Leave a lighter message in tone this time and wait. Had to close the window but came back to see it deleted or not taking yet again.
I proceed to just throw the rest of my funds away presuming they are scamming me at this point and light up chat. Anazed how many took the company line and did not stop to think of the issue effecting them as well at some point. Troll box aside I guess this is all I have now for complaining since I do not have a screenshot.

Just want people to know they are letting you autoroll well it is clearly glitched.Good luck getting funds back as well, have had no luck contacting anyone there.

Tldr autoroll wager loss limits do not work at all!!!!

It does work though from what I can see, I just tested this out as well after reading your comment. If what you're saying is correct, reproduce it with smaller amounts and send us a video and I'll refund that prior loss if I can reproduce what occurs in the video.

Understand what you are saying but at this point I rather not deposit again to reproduce a issue, only to play email tag for 10 days to get my funds back. This happened last server update when my deposit was lost and support gave me the run around for a good week before I posted here and you sorted it out in a matter of hours. Rather not go down the route again and will just write it off as lost funds.

My issues so far:

- No player history audit (most sites offer this that I know)
- No hotkeys (reason I use primedice over Nitro)

If some one wants to dabble in finding the issue. I was on a iphone betting 3x @ .00016 doubling 100% on a loss. The stop loss was set at .002 and I proceeded to lose .008 and should have taken a screenshot but it would have proved little.


Other than that Stunna, I doubt I could recreate the issue and would rather not dance down that road currently. Maybe if my next deposit runs well, I may attempt to recreate but I am not sure how to record on a Iphone.
legendary
Activity: 3192
Merit: 1279
Primedice.com, Stake.com
Understand the issues but I am abit jadedat my experience today.

Setup autoroll with a .002 stop loss at 3x and left to play chess on my cell on another page only to comeback to see max loss did not work and it only stopped because the next bet was over my total amount. Triedchat for help and was told “youmost likely did it wrong”,”stop moaning” and finally was told to contact support.
So I leave a message about being scammed which I have been to this point and expected a reply later today.Come back to check and see no ticket history besides some super hero promo from four weeks ago. Leave a lighter message in tone this time and wait. Had to close the window but came back to see it deleted or not taking yet again.
I proceed to just throw the rest of my funds away presuming they are scamming me at this point and light up chat. Anazed how many took the company line and did not stop to think of the issue effecting them as well at some point. Troll box aside I guess this is all I have now for complaining since I do not have a screenshot.

Just want people to know they are letting you autoroll well it is clearly glitched.Good luck getting funds back as well, have had no luck contacting anyone there.

Tldr autoroll wager loss limits do not work at all!!!!

It does work though from what I can see, I just tested this out as well after reading your comment. If what you're saying is correct, reproduce it with smaller amounts and send us a video and I'll refund that prior loss if I can reproduce what occurs in the video.
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1723
Are you still updating? The autobet is so slow & often suddenly stop processing
Same is the case with me, its slow and seems to stop at times.
I hope these are not the effects "after" the upgrade has been completed and this is just due to maintainance.


Let me ask you this way, so what is the point of having more than 1 account then if they do not have the intention to abuse it? What adaseb saying is true, nowadays people make more account just to abuse the faucet as well, like aiming 9900x and keep doing this forever, if you do not banned this kind of abuser, your site is not going to develop as well

It is normal to have more than 1 account, but max 2 accounts. First account which is the main account is used for betting purpose and the second account is usually being used as "bank" account. Obviously if the main purpose of having multi accounts is to abuse something then it should be banned. But I know there is a dice site that lets you to have multiple accounts as long as the accounts are not self-referred to gain profit from the affiliate program.

Exactly, there are even more uses:
-Main account on your PC, and secondary on your phone for quick "on the go" betting. In this way, if your phone got stolen your main balance is safe.
-Main account for private betting, and secondary for Twitch streams. If you make a mistake and show your password or any hint about it while LIVE, your main balance is safe.
I never knew people are streaming pd on twitch too. What channels are doing it? Are there much viewership for it?

Yes they are many people doing it and in my opinion its almost always a waste of time watching them. You earn nothing.

Basically if you read the trollbox you get people posting a link saying "Watch me turn 1BTC into 10 BTC LIVE!" and when you go there usually nothing happens and the guy just gets paid for your twitch exposure.

There were a few times when some guy actually did have 1 BTC and bet with it, but they were all small bets and his method was more of less martingale.

People did this years ago even on Youtube. Basically showing videos on how "Turn Primedice Faucet into 1 BTC" and its usually someone who managed to make a few very lucky bets and went from like 3000 Sats to like 100,000 Sats and called it quits.

Again, no real method just luck and waste of time watching.
newbie
Activity: 23
Merit: 0
Understand the issues but I am abit jadedat my experience today.

Setup autoroll with a .002 stop loss at 3x and left to play chess on my cell on another page only to comeback to see max loss did not work and it only stopped because the next bet was over my total amount. Triedchat for help and was told “youmost likely did it wrong”,”stop moaning” and finally was told to contact support.
So I leave a message about being scammed which I have been to this point and expected a reply later today.Come back to check and see no ticket history besides some super hero promo from four weeks ago. Leave a lighter message in tone this time and wait. Had to close the window but came back to see it deleted or not taking yet again.
I proceed to just throw the rest of my funds away presuming they are scamming me at this point and light up chat. Anazed how many took the company line and did not stop to think of the issue effecting them as well at some point. Troll box aside I guess this is all I have now for complaining since I do not have a screenshot.

Just want people to know they are letting you autoroll well it is clearly glitched.Good luck getting funds back as well, have had no luck contacting anyone there.

Tldr autoroll wager loss limits do not work at all!!!!
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 576
Are you still updating? The autobet is so slow & often suddenly stop processing
Same is the case with me, its slow and seems to stop at times.
I hope these are not the effects "after" the upgrade has been completed and this is just due to maintainance.


Let me ask you this way, so what is the point of having more than 1 account then if they do not have the intention to abuse it? What adaseb saying is true, nowadays people make more account just to abuse the faucet as well, like aiming 9900x and keep doing this forever, if you do not banned this kind of abuser, your site is not going to develop as well

It is normal to have more than 1 account, but max 2 accounts. First account which is the main account is used for betting purpose and the second account is usually being used as "bank" account. Obviously if the main purpose of having multi accounts is to abuse something then it should be banned. But I know there is a dice site that lets you to have multiple accounts as long as the accounts are not self-referred to gain profit from the affiliate program.

Exactly, there are even more uses:
-Main account on your PC, and secondary on your phone for quick "on the go" betting. In this way, if your phone got stolen your main balance is safe.
-Main account for private betting, and secondary for Twitch streams. If you make a mistake and show your password or any hint about it while LIVE, your main balance is safe.
I never knew people are streaming pd on twitch too. What channels are doing it? Are there much viewership for it?
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
Are you still updating? The autobet is so slow & often suddenly stop processing
member
Activity: 280
Merit: 15

Let me ask you this way, so what is the point of having more than 1 account then if they do not have the intention to abuse it? What adaseb saying is true, nowadays people make more account just to abuse the faucet as well, like aiming 9900x and keep doing this forever, if you do not banned this kind of abuser, your site is not going to develop as well

It is normal to have more than 1 account, but max 2 accounts. First account which is the main account is used for betting purpose and the second account is usually being used as "bank" account. Obviously if the main purpose of having multi accounts is to abuse something then it should be banned. But I know there is a dice site that lets you to have multiple accounts as long as the accounts are not self-referred to gain profit from the affiliate program.

Exactly, there are even more uses:
-Main account on your PC, and secondary on your phone for quick "on the go" betting. In this way, if your phone got stolen your main balance is safe.
-Main account for private betting, and secondary for Twitch streams. If you make a mistake and show your password or any hint about it while LIVE, your main balance is safe.
legendary
Activity: 3192
Merit: 1279
Primedice.com, Stake.com
As mentioned previously, PD is being updated. There's a wide variety of performance upgrades and a lot of minor design changes. We've moved servers and users will have to set a new seed to continue playing. I'll be posting the full changelog after the update is here, feel free to post/PM feedback regarding the changes as we'll be monitoring this thread.

Thank you
member
Activity: 2436
Merit: 57
Primedice.com & Stake.com
Well for instances you can always use multiple Accounts for strategic bets.
Such as:

- Getting more bet rolls for a specific Giveaway (meanwhile betting on all accounts you have simultaneous and see which one has better rolls for that giveaway)
- Avoiding some probabilistics upsets if lets say some accounts have worst losing streaks.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 1354

Let me ask you this way, so what is the point of having more than 1 account then if they do not have the intention to abuse it? What adaseb saying is true, nowadays people make more account just to abuse the faucet as well, like aiming 9900x and keep doing this forever, if you do not banned this kind of abuser, your site is not going to develop as well

It is normal to have more than 1 account, but max 2 accounts. First account which is the main account is used for betting purpose and the second account is usually being used as "bank" account. Obviously if the main purpose of having multi accounts is to abuse something then it should be banned. But I know there is a dice site that lets you to have multiple accounts as long as the accounts are not self-referred to gain profit from the affiliate program.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1008
I am pretty sure in the terms its said somewhere "no more than 1 account" most sites have this term even if they don't enforce it.

What is really strange is why create so many alts, and be too lazy to think of nicknames that aren't related to each other.

Most likely this was deliberate. So knows, maybe he has more than 1 PC and is logged in simultaneously so he created all these accounts. One account for his work computer, home computer, mobile, vacation home computer, etc.

Nope, mostly site will never give you more multiple accounts, what I know that the only site that giving 2 account per ip is bitsler but I do not know if they put it on their ToS or not. Anyway I just checked on primedice ToS and here what I found, so I do not think they allow players to have more than 1 accounts. Usually people created many accounts just for abusing the faucet but if the conditions they do not abuse it, I wondered if this is allowed or not

Quote
5.1. PERSONAL USE. The Service is intended solely for the User’s personal use. The User is only allowed to wager for his/her personal entertainment and may not create multiple accounts, including for the purpose of collusion and/or abuse of service

Please do not compare both Casinos (Primedice <-> Bitsler). They differ in so much from both professional sides.
For instance in Primedice you are allowed to have multiple accounts and play with them as long you follow the rules such as Faucet ones:


Where in Bitsler admin is so locked into bots / multiple accounts that you might be scared off in having such multiple ones.
If you didn't knew, Bitsler was DaDice before, same Staff just different Domain. They blow up their DaDice due to possible faucet levels farming and tried to block everyone's withdrawls and eventually busted in so they had to change their Domain / return back after some time like it was a new Casino / staff team (Bitsler)

I am not really sure if you are following from what I said here. I told you bitsler allowed 2 account because that is what I know from playing there a lot, so updates will known. But I seldom played on primedice, only when there is a big event so I do not really know about their terms or anything. But when I checked on their ToS, it does not said that they allowed player to have more than 1 account like most of dice site

True, Bitsler let you create 2 accounts, but not 3: "14.1. Having more than 2 accounts is strictly forbidden(by person/IP/house/family). "
Obviously, I think bitsler or Primedice don't care if for any reason you have 3 accounts in your house, as long as you don't use them for abusing the service.

Let me ask you this way, so what is the point of having more than 1 account then if they do not have the intention to abuse it? What adaseb saying is true, nowadays people make more account just to abuse the faucet as well, like aiming 9900x and keep doing this forever, if you do not banned this kind of abuser, your site is not going to develop as well
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1723
I am pretty sure in the terms its said somewhere "no more than 1 account" most sites have this term even if they don't enforce it.

What is really strange is why create so many alts, and be too lazy to think of nicknames that aren't related to each other.

Most likely this was deliberate. So knows, maybe he has more than 1 PC and is logged in simultaneously so he created all these accounts. One account for his work computer, home computer, mobile, vacation home computer, etc.

Nope, mostly site will never give you more multiple accounts, what I know that the only site that giving 2 account per ip is bitsler but I do not know if they put it on their ToS or not. Anyway I just checked on primedice ToS and here what I found, so I do not think they allow players to have more than 1 accounts. Usually people created many accounts just for abusing the faucet but if the conditions they do not abuse it, I wondered if this is allowed or not

Quote
5.1. PERSONAL USE. The Service is intended solely for the User’s personal use. The User is only allowed to wager for his/her personal entertainment and may not create multiple accounts, including for the purpose of collusion and/or abuse of service

Please do not compare both Casinos (Primedice <-> Bitsler). They differ in so much from both professional sides.
For instance in Primedice you are allowed to have multiple accounts and play with them as long you follow the rules such as Faucet ones:


Where in Bitsler admin is so locked into bots / multiple accounts that you might be scared off in having such multiple ones.
If you didn't knew, Bitsler was DaDice before, same Staff just different Domain. They blow up their DaDice due to possible faucet levels farming and tried to block everyone's withdrawls and eventually busted in so they had to change their Domain / return back after some time like it was a new Casino / staff team (Bitsler)

I am not really sure if you are following from what I said here. I told you bitsler allowed 2 account because that is what I know from playing there a lot, so updates will known. But I seldom played on primedice, only when there is a big event so I do not really know about their terms or anything. But when I checked on their ToS, it does not said that they allowed player to have more than 1 account like most of dice site

True, Bitsler let you create 2 accounts, but not 3: "14.1. Having more than 2 accounts is strictly forbidden(by person/IP/house/family). "
Obviously, I think bitsler or Primedice don't care if for any reason you have 3 accounts in your house, as long as you don't use them for abusing the service.

Well in general when someone makes multiple accounts they are "usually" doing it to abuse the system in some way.

The only legit way for making a new account is if you lost your 2FA for your old one. Basically what happened with me. I lost my phone and didn't know that Google 2FA app doesn't backup the codes. So I contacted the admin and they said "Just go ahead and make a new account since you had no balance on the old one".

These days when someone creates a bunch of accounts, I am pretty sure its to abuse the faucet in one way or another. Or who knows they've been a mean troll and got banned from the trollbox and made another account to "troll" away again.
member
Activity: 280
Merit: 15
I am pretty sure in the terms its said somewhere "no more than 1 account" most sites have this term even if they don't enforce it.

What is really strange is why create so many alts, and be too lazy to think of nicknames that aren't related to each other.

Most likely this was deliberate. So knows, maybe he has more than 1 PC and is logged in simultaneously so he created all these accounts. One account for his work computer, home computer, mobile, vacation home computer, etc.

Nope, mostly site will never give you more multiple accounts, what I know that the only site that giving 2 account per ip is bitsler but I do not know if they put it on their ToS or not. Anyway I just checked on primedice ToS and here what I found, so I do not think they allow players to have more than 1 accounts. Usually people created many accounts just for abusing the faucet but if the conditions they do not abuse it, I wondered if this is allowed or not

Quote
5.1. PERSONAL USE. The Service is intended solely for the User’s personal use. The User is only allowed to wager for his/her personal entertainment and may not create multiple accounts, including for the purpose of collusion and/or abuse of service

Please do not compare both Casinos (Primedice <-> Bitsler). They differ in so much from both professional sides.
For instance in Primedice you are allowed to have multiple accounts and play with them as long you follow the rules such as Faucet ones:


Where in Bitsler admin is so locked into bots / multiple accounts that you might be scared off in having such multiple ones.
If you didn't knew, Bitsler was DaDice before, same Staff just different Domain. They blow up their DaDice due to possible faucet levels farming and tried to block everyone's withdrawls and eventually busted in so they had to change their Domain / return back after some time like it was a new Casino / staff team (Bitsler)

I am not really sure if you are following from what I said here. I told you bitsler allowed 2 account because that is what I know from playing there a lot, so updates will known. But I seldom played on primedice, only when there is a big event so I do not really know about their terms or anything. But when I checked on their ToS, it does not said that they allowed player to have more than 1 account like most of dice site

True, Bitsler let you create 2 accounts, but not 3: "14.1. Having more than 2 accounts is strictly forbidden(by person/IP/house/family). "
Obviously, I think bitsler or Primedice don't care if for any reason you have 3 accounts in your house, as long as you don't use them for abusing the service.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1008
I am pretty sure in the terms its said somewhere "no more than 1 account" most sites have this term even if they don't enforce it.

What is really strange is why create so many alts, and be too lazy to think of nicknames that aren't related to each other.

Most likely this was deliberate. So knows, maybe he has more than 1 PC and is logged in simultaneously so he created all these accounts. One account for his work computer, home computer, mobile, vacation home computer, etc.

Nope, mostly site will never give you more multiple accounts, what I know that the only site that giving 2 account per ip is bitsler but I do not know if they put it on their ToS or not. Anyway I just checked on primedice ToS and here what I found, so I do not think they allow players to have more than 1 accounts. Usually people created many accounts just for abusing the faucet but if the conditions they do not abuse it, I wondered if this is allowed or not

Quote
5.1. PERSONAL USE. The Service is intended solely for the User’s personal use. The User is only allowed to wager for his/her personal entertainment and may not create multiple accounts, including for the purpose of collusion and/or abuse of service

Please do not compare both Casinos (Primedice <-> Bitsler). They differ in so much from both professional sides.
For instance in Primedice you are allowed to have multiple accounts and play with them as long you follow the rules such as Faucet ones:


Where in Bitsler admin is so locked into bots / multiple accounts that you might be scared off in having such multiple ones.
If you didn't knew, Bitsler was DaDice before, same Staff just different Domain. They blow up their DaDice due to possible faucet levels farming and tried to block everyone's withdrawls and eventually busted in so they had to change their Domain / return back after some time like it was a new Casino / staff team (Bitsler)

I am not really sure if you are following from what I said here. I told you bitsler allowed 2 account because that is what I know from playing there a lot, so updates will known. But I seldom played on primedice, only when there is a big event so I do not really know about their terms or anything. But when I checked on their ToS, it does not said that they allowed player to have more than 1 account like most of dice site
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 2198
I stand with Ukraine.
Do you want to get some Satoshis through posts or topics creation? Huh
Become part of our Community!
We pay up to 5000 satoshis per Topic and 1000 satoshis per Post! Shocked
Withdraw from 2,000 satoshis!
It was never too easy to win some Bitcoins wasn't it? Cool

Join our Community: https://forum.primedice.com/
~

I can confirm that PD Forum is a great place to join. Apart from being a nice place to have a discussion with your fellow gamblers you can really earn some satoshis for your posts. Also there are various giveaways and weekly challenges participating in which you can easily get around 100k sats or more. Follow the main rules, don't beg and don't spam, and you'll be okay. Smiley
:wq
copper member
Activity: 258
Merit: 49
Iron Age Challenge!
Ends: 20/08/18 @ Midday (12pm) GMT



Following the success of our last two time travelling expeditions, this week we venture forth to the Iron Age. We need players who are willing to travel back to one of the most treacherous and barbaric periods of our history to recover a weapon that is reported to be able to control the minds of all people who see it. To ensure that it doesn't get in the hand of the wrong people, we have set up some funds to help recover this artefact so that we can properly protect it for the rest of eternity. So just like the past two weeks, you first need to unlock the correct travel code: 22.22 and then successfully capture the magical weapon by rolling a 12.34 or 23.45 or 34.56, but not consecutively. All people who achieve the challenge in the next 7 days, will get a share in the prize pool! There is no limit to the amount of winners, and the more players who get involved the higher the prize pool!


Requirements

  • Roll a winning bet hitting 22.22, then (not consecutively) roll a winning bet hitting 12.34 or 23.45 or 34.56.
  • Minimum bet is 100 satoshi or 1,200 ether or 10,000 litoshi.
  • 1 valid entry per person.
  • Bets must have been made after the commencement of this promotion.
  • 10+ forum post count.


Prize Pools (based on amount of unique players)

  • Minimum prize pool: 0.01 BTC
  • If over 30 participants: 0.03 BTC
  • If over 40 participants: 0.05 BTC
  • If over 50 participants: 0.08 BTC


How to Enter

Respond to this topic on our official forum: https://forum.primedice.com/topic/32804-iron-age-challenge/
Feel free to discuss the promotion here, but all entries need to be posted on the topic provided in the above link.
member
Activity: 2436
Merit: 57
Primedice.com & Stake.com
I am pretty sure in the terms its said somewhere "no more than 1 account" most sites have this term even if they don't enforce it.

What is really strange is why create so many alts, and be too lazy to think of nicknames that aren't related to each other.

Most likely this was deliberate. So knows, maybe he has more than 1 PC and is logged in simultaneously so he created all these accounts. One account for his work computer, home computer, mobile, vacation home computer, etc.

Nope, mostly site will never give you more multiple accounts, what I know that the only site that giving 2 account per ip is bitsler but I do not know if they put it on their ToS or not. Anyway I just checked on primedice ToS and here what I found, so I do not think they allow players to have more than 1 accounts. Usually people created many accounts just for abusing the faucet but if the conditions they do not abuse it, I wondered if this is allowed or not

Quote
5.1. PERSONAL USE. The Service is intended solely for the User’s personal use. The User is only allowed to wager for his/her personal entertainment and may not create multiple accounts, including for the purpose of collusion and/or abuse of service

Please do not compare both Casinos (Primedice <-> Bitsler). They differ in so much from both professional sides.
For instance in Primedice you are allowed to have multiple accounts and play with them as long you follow the rules such as Faucet ones:


Where in Bitsler admin is so locked into bots / multiple accounts that you might be scared off in having such multiple ones.
If you didn't knew, Bitsler was DaDice before, same Staff just different Domain. They blow up their DaDice due to possible faucet levels farming and tried to block everyone's withdrawls and eventually busted in so they had to change their Domain / return back after some time like it was a new Casino / staff team (Bitsler)
member
Activity: 280
Merit: 15
Yes, the terms are clear.
Anyway, some players have a normal account, and a "bank/saving" or "stream-only" account, and it is not punished in any way, unless you find a way to abuse the service.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1008
I am pretty sure in the terms its said somewhere "no more than 1 account" most sites have this term even if they don't enforce it.

What is really strange is why create so many alts, and be too lazy to think of nicknames that aren't related to each other.

Most likely this was deliberate. So knows, maybe he has more than 1 PC and is logged in simultaneously so he created all these accounts. One account for his work computer, home computer, mobile, vacation home computer, etc.

Nope, mostly site will never give you more multiple accounts, what I know that the only site that giving 2 account per ip is bitsler but I do not know if they put it on their ToS or not. Anyway I just checked on primedice ToS and here what I found, so I do not think they allow players to have more than 1 accounts. Usually people created many accounts just for abusing the faucet but if the conditions they do not abuse it, I wondered if this is allowed or not

Quote
5.1. PERSONAL USE. The Service is intended solely for the User’s personal use. The User is only allowed to wager for his/her personal entertainment and may not create multiple accounts, including for the purpose of collusion and/or abuse of service
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1723
Does primedice do zero-confirmation deposits right now?

I think every once in a while they say they do, but it seems like right now they don't.

No, last time that I've used the site there was a 1 confirmation wait, to have on the site balance the amount deposited and be able to play

There is no such thing at the moment. It was a thing back then but not anymore (for now) due to safety reasons.

was this ever a reality at Primedice? think Bitsler did something like this
with all the confidence stuff and such and 0 confirmations,but I think they were quickly reassured by some shady doublespenders  Roll Eyes
seaking of my experience my deposits were only considered "confident" a couple of times,the rest I had to wait for 1  confirmation as usual
I'd rather wait a bit longer for my deposit but be sure the site I'm gambling at is not prone to attacks like that

Wasn't one pro of Bitcoin Cash that they disabled the RBF (Replace by Fee) and hence it let merchants be able to accept 0 confirmation deposits.

Since RBF is disabled, if someone tries to spend the same input more than once it automatically gets rejected by all the nodes. This wasn't possible with RBF because they could always resend it as long as the miner fee was higher.

Either way, I see more of an annoyance with 0 confirmation deposits (instant) rather than more profits. I am sure most people are willing to wait the 10 minutes since fees are down and usually filled on the next block. If they enable it, it will make double spending very easy and people will deposit, make a large bet, if they lose, they will just double spend it. If they win, then they won't and will just withdraw.
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