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Topic: REEEEE: PussyGate, a Collection of Trump Investigations - page 13. (Read 4522 times)

legendary
Activity: 2716
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Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

To avoid being charged for the more serious crimes he did commit.

Present the evidence to back this assertion.

I already did.  You think that a retired 3 star general lobbying America policy makers to support another country without disclosing the fact that he was paid $500k by foreign interest is 'a manufactured process crime'.

Spendulus took a different route and pivoted to "he wasn't charged with the crime so I don't care stop talking about it" attitude.

I could also prove that when he eventually did file as a foreign agent, he made materially false statements and omitted information he was required to provide, but honestly I don't think there's literally anything that would convince either of you that Flynn committed serious crimes.  Trump said he's innocent - in your minds that trumps any actual facts.  Plus you could always just google a bunch of articles defending Flynn.


No, you really have not shown that he was guilty. I understand that you think you have, but you have not. You'd have to do quite a bit of research, and prepare a properly argued brief, to get half way where you think you already are. You'd have to cover the common arguments by defense in said brief. And defeat those arguments.

There are many technical details in such a matter, and there are numerous standards to be met before a DA would take a case and bring it to court. He'd have to be pretty certain that he was going to win, right?

In late 2016 he:
Registered as a lobbiest.
Did not register as a foreign agent.
Lobbied to support Turkey.
Was paid $500k by a Turkish company.

In March 2017 he:
Registered retroactively as a foreign agent because of his actions in late 2016.

What have I not proven.  If we can agree that the above is true I'll move on to the false statements and omissions he made on is FARA filing.

Or, if you think it's not a big deal like TECSHARE I won't bother.








legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

To avoid being charged for the more serious crimes he did commit.

Present the evidence to back this assertion.

I already did.  You think that a retired 3 star general lobbying America policy makers to support another country without disclosing the fact that he was paid $500k by foreign interest is 'a manufactured process crime'.

Spendulus took a different route and pivoted to "he wasn't charged with the crime so I don't care stop talking about it" attitude.

I could also prove that when he eventually did file as a foreign agent, he made materially false statements and omitted information he was required to provide, but honestly I don't think there's literally anything that would convince either of you that Flynn committed serious crimes.  Trump said he's innocent - in your minds that trumps any actual facts.  Plus you could always just google a bunch of articles defending Flynn.


No, you really have not shown that he was guilty. I understand that you think you have, but you have not. You'd have to do quite a bit of research, and prepare a properly argued brief, to get half way where you think you already are. You'd have to cover the common arguments by defense in said brief. And defeat those arguments.

There are many technical details in such a matter, and there are numerous standards to be met before a DA would take a case and bring it to court. He'd have to be pretty certain that he was going to win, right?
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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lawful behavior of investigators in collecting evidence
Care to show me what they did was illegal? Last time I looked at it, it wasn't. That's the fault of the crap laws involved and not the actions of the FBI. You can argue about the morality about it all you want, but as far as I know, it wasn't illegal. Granted I looked at it a few months ago so maybe something new has come to light.


The main complaint seems to be that they didn't tell him that it's illegal to lie to the fbi.

The agents notes were released, they discussed not telling him at first because they wanted him to be relaxed when they asked him questions that they already knew the answers to and would force him to either lie, confess or refuse to answer.
sr. member
Activity: 686
Merit: 320
lawful behavior of investigators in collecting evidence
Care to show me what they did was illegal? Last time I looked at it, it wasn't. That's the fault of the crap laws involved and not the actions of the FBI. You can argue about the morality about it all you want, but as far as I know, it wasn't illegal. Granted I looked at it a few months ago so maybe something new has come to light.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

To avoid being charged for the more serious crimes he did commit.

Present the evidence to back this assertion.

I already did.  You think that a retired 3 star general lobbying America policy makers to support another country without disclosing the fact that he was paid $500k by foreign interest is 'a manufactured process crime'.

Spendulus took a different route and pivoted to "he wasn't charged with the crime so I don't care stop talking about it" attitude.

I could also prove that when he eventually did file as a foreign agent, he made materially false statements and omitted information he was required to provide, but honestly I don't think there's literally anything that would convince either of you that Flynn committed serious crimes.  Trump said he's innocent - in your minds that trumps any actual facts.  Plus you could always just google a bunch of articles defending Flynn.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

To avoid being charged for the more serious crimes he did commit.

Present the evidence to back this assertion.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

To avoid being charged for the more serious crimes he did commit.

Or because that's the deal they offered him? I think that's much more likely. They would like to proceed with a "crime" that they had total control over from when they first dreamed it up and set up the trap, to when they recorded it, and then later prosecuted it.

There could have been serious deficiencies in the other things, that would have made the outcome uncertain if they were brought to trial. You have suggested ONE possibility.

Ultimately, you just have to deal with your own conscious in the matter of believing it's Good and Right that someone pleads guilty of something they were innocent of.

But after all, given that it was a rigged, setup scam of entrapment, why wouldn't you defend it?
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

To avoid being charged for the more serious crimes he did commit.


legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?


"Attorney: Michael Flynn's plea was coerced by a threat to indict his son"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/attorney-michael-flynns-plea-was-coerced-by-a-threat-to-indict-his-son/vp-BB13i3oO

(this is against official policy BTW)



A lawyer describes how he was railroaded in detail:

"General Flynn Versus the FBI! Lawyer Robert Barnes and Stefan Molyneux"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoXCB1lx6aA

Just my opinion, but for "plea bargaining" to have any shred of justice, it would be necessary for the crime that the defendant plead guilty to , to have been one he actually did and was guilty of.

Made up crimes and process technicalities occurring during the course of an investigation cannot possibly qualify.

So to answer Twitchy's earlier comments, had Flynn pled guilty to an actual crime that he'd actually committed, that would be different than if he pled guilty to lying in an interview for which those who interviewed him said he was being truthful, and for which their managers had schemed to entrap him, and which for those specific actions have been fired from the FBI.

Of course even in this case, for the "charge of lying to the FBI", for that to have been fair, we'd need to see that the victim (Yes, Flynn) was advised of his Miranda rights and told he had the right to an attorney present.


legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Why would Flynn plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?


"Attorney: Michael Flynn's plea was coerced by a threat to indict his son"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/attorney-michael-flynns-plea-was-coerced-by-a-threat-to-indict-his-son/vp-BB13i3oO

(this is against official policy BTW)



A lawyer describes how he was railroaded in detail:

"General Flynn Versus the FBI! Lawyer Robert Barnes and Stefan Molyneux"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoXCB1lx6aA
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...
Imagine if Hunter Biden ....

No, not interested in playing that game.

Are you through now bitching about things OTHER THAN what Flynn was charged and convicted of, with gross prosecutorial side malfeasance?



Do you put any effort into being objective?

I mean, you can't really think it's not a big deal for someone powerful to act as a foreign agent without disclosing it...and lie about it when you get caught....can you?

Do you think this should be ok?

I think you know it's really fucked up but you just can't bring yourself to say something bad about the guy.

Let's look at one memo by those agents that framed Flynn. The hand scribbled memo says this,

“What’s our goal? Get him to lie so we can prosecute or get him fired?”

Have fun defending their actions. I know you would so much like to change the subject.

https://hannity.com/media-room/smoking-gun-see-the-disturbing-fbi-memo-on-flynn-whats-our-goal-get-him-to-lie-so-we-can-prosecute/
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
...
Imagine if Hunter Biden ....

No, not interested in playing that game.

Are you through now bitching about things OTHER THAN what Flynn was charged and convicted of, with gross prosecutorial side malfeasance?



Do you put any effort into being objective?

I mean, you can't really think it's not a big deal for someone powerful to act as a foreign agent without disclosing it...and lie about it when you get caught....can you?

Do you think this should be ok?

I think you know it's really fucked up but you just can't bring yourself to say something bad about the guy.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...
Imagine if Hunter Biden ....

No, not interested in playing that game.

Are you through now bitching about things OTHER THAN what Flynn was charged and convicted of, with gross prosecutorial-side malfeasance?

If not, keep on posting about imaginary crimes.

How about we now talk about the hard copy evidence of the FBI planning and executing an entrapment of Flynn, with the stated purpose being to entrap him into a criminal charge of lying, not to find out the actual truth.

That's the operation you are defending. Let's see you defend it, instead of weaseling around, talking about Hunter, imaginary crimes, any and everything instead of the real shit you're in upto about waist level.

Go to it.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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....I feel like you're just looking for any possible way to rationalize to yourself that Flynn is a victim here.  He's not a poor minority with a shit public defender.  He's a retired 3 star general that's buddys with the president and he got a great deal considering he betrayed the country.  

I'm thinking he must be confident that they won't be able to charge him for any of the crimes we know he did.  I'm not sure how though.  It just wouldn't make sense for him to do what he's doing if he thought it were possible he'd be charged again.  The evidence is overwhelming even without the signed admission.  His only option would be to....plea to a lesser charge lol.

Explaining to you the reality of plea bargaining is not rationalizing anything to myself.

You seem intent on getting people interested in what he WASN'T CHARGED WITH, which puzzles me.

There were some very, very wrong things going on on the Gov side in the items he was charged with, and if justice is to be served, those need to be corrected. Pretty much everyone acknowledges Flynn is a victim here, of improper actions by FBI administrators who have been fired for those exact actions. duh...

How much can you be blind to ?



Incredible that you see it that way.

Imagine if Hunter Biden had been lobbying Democrats to push pro-ukraine policies and then it turned out he had secretly been getting paid by Ukraine and the rest played out similar to Flynn with the FBI.

Would you consider him a victim?  Of course not.  And your head would explode if he ended up walking away and declared 'fully exonerated' by the president.

The politics shouldn't matter when someone sells out their country.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
....I feel like you're just looking for any possible way to rationalize to yourself that Flynn is a victim here.  He's not a poor minority with a shit public defender.  He's a retired 3 star general that's buddys with the president and he got a great deal considering he betrayed the country.  

I'm thinking he must be confident that they won't be able to charge him for any of the crimes we know he did.  I'm not sure how though.  It just wouldn't make sense for him to do what he's doing if he thought it were possible he'd be charged again.  The evidence is overwhelming even without the signed admission.  His only option would be to....plea to a lesser charge lol.

Explaining to you the reality of plea bargaining is not rationalizing anything to myself.

You seem intent on getting people interested in what he WASN'T CHARGED WITH, which puzzles me.

There were some very, very wrong things going on on the Gov side in the items he was charged with, and if justice is to be served, those need to be corrected. Pretty much everyone acknowledges Flynn is a victim here, of improper actions by FBI administrators who have been fired for those exact actions. duh...

How much can you be blind to ?

legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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...
We all already knew that. I think, or I hope we all did. So now we really need to focus on the entrapment and the charge of "lying to the FBI." Because that's what real. If you want to call him a "convicted felon", then that's what you got. No more, no less.

If he finds away to reverse his guilty plea, do you think he should be off the hook for all the charges he avoided by taking the deal?  There seems to be enough evidence to go to trial.

I would imagine that in a reversed plea deal the dropped charges could be brought back up, if within the statute of limitations. Prosecutors would have to examine that and decide what to do.

It would be a new court case and a new trial.

But he's already admitted he's guilty of several crimes he wasn't charged with.  

And even if he didn't, the 4 month late FARA filing was essentially admitting he didn't file within the 10 days required.  And it's easy to prove the FARA filing contained false statements.

The whole thing is just weird.  He wasn't charged with any of the serious crimes he admitted to, and he most likely wasn't going to get any time. He plead guilty bc he got a good deal.

It would be like if a cop pulled someone over for a DUI, the guy failed the breathalyzer, but decided to just give him a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.  The guy says thank you, pays the fine and then goes to court to try and get the whole thing thrown out bc the cop was lying about his seatbelt.

This is the VERY DEFINITION of plea bargaining. If it's weird, it's weird hundreds of thousands of times per year. Virtually all prisons in the US are full then of people, usually of color, who have gone through this "weird" judicial process called plea bargaining.

Are you starting to "get it?"

Oh, and by the way, the cop that gave him a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt when he failed the breathalyzer? That cop should be fired, and the guy should have the case thrown out.

I feel like you're just looking for any possible way to rationalize to yourself that Flynn is a victim here.  He's not a poor minority with a shit public defender.  He's a retired 3 star general that's buddys with the president and he got a great deal considering he betrayed the country.  

I'm thinking he must be confident that they won't be able to charge him for any of the crimes we know he did.  I'm not sure how though.  It just wouldn't make sense for him to do what he's doing if he thought it were possible he'd be charged again.  The evidence is overwhelming even without the signed admission.  His only option would be to....plea to a lesser charge lol.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...
We all already knew that. I think, or I hope we all did. So now we really need to focus on the entrapment and the charge of "lying to the FBI." Because that's what real. If you want to call him a "convicted felon", then that's what you got. No more, no less.

If he finds away to reverse his guilty plea, do you think he should be off the hook for all the charges he avoided by taking the deal?  There seems to be enough evidence to go to trial.

I would imagine that in a reversed plea deal the dropped charges could be brought back up, if within the statute of limitations. Prosecutors would have to examine that and decide what to do.

It would be a new court case and a new trial.

But he's already admitted he's guilty of several crimes he wasn't charged with.  

And even if he didn't, the 4 month late FARA filing was essentially admitting he didn't file within the 10 days required.  And it's easy to prove the FARA filing contained false statements.

The whole thing is just weird.  He wasn't charged with any of the serious crimes he admitted to, and he most likely wasn't going to get any time. He plead guilty bc he got a good deal.

It would be like if a cop pulled someone over for a DUI, the guy failed the breathalyzer, but decided to just give him a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.  The guy says thank you, pays the fine and then goes to court to try and get the whole thing thrown out bc the cop was lying about his seatbelt.

This is the VERY DEFINITION of plea bargaining. If it's weird, it's weird hundreds of thousands of times per year. Virtually all prisons in the US are full then of people, usually of color, who have gone through this "weird" judicial process called plea bargaining.

Are you starting to "get it?"

Oh, and by the way, the cop that gave him a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt when he failed the breathalyzer? That cop should be fired, and the guy should have the case thrown out.

I would suggest read this summary of the recent events in the Flynn case, and then decide whether to continue to defend the prosecution of Flynn.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/27/robert-muellers-case-against-michael-flynn-is-about-to-implode/
legendary
Activity: 2716
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...

We all already knew that. I think, or I hope we all did. So now we really need to focus on the entrapment and the charge of "lying to the FBI." Because that's what real. If you want to call him a "convicted felon", then that's what you got. No more, no less.



If he finds away to reverse his guilty plea, do you think he should be off the hook for all the charges he avoided by taking the deal?  There seems to be enough evidence to go to trial.

I would imagine that in a reversed plea deal the dropped charges could be brought back up, if within the statute of limitations. Prosecutors would have to examine that and decide what to do.

It would be a new court case and a new trial.
[/quote]

But he's already admitted he's guilty of several crimes he wasn't charged with.  

And even if he didn't, the 4 month late FARA filing was essentially admitting he didn't file within the 10 days required.  And it's easy to prove the FARA filing contained false statements.


The whole thing is just weird.  He wasn't charged with any of the serious crimes he admitted to, and he most likely wasn't going to get any time. He plead guilty bc he got a good deal.

It would be like if a cop pulled someone over for a DUI, the guy failed the breathalyzer, but decided to just give him a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.  The guy says thank you, pays the fine and then goes to court to try and get the whole thing thrown out bc the cop was lying about his seatbelt.

legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...

We all already knew that. I think, or I hope we all did. So now we really need to focus on the entrapment and the charge of "lying to the FBI." Because that's what real. If you want to call him a "convicted felon", then that's what you got. No more, no less.



If he finds away to reverse his guilty plea, do you think he should be off the hook for all the charges he avoided by taking the deal?  There seems to be enough evidence to go to trial.
[/quote]

I would imagine that in a reversed plea deal the dropped charges could be brought back up, if within the statute of limitations. Prosecutors would have to examine that and decide what to do.

It would be a new court case and a new trial.
member
Activity: 189
Merit: 30
amazing watching the trump team squirm to avoid the fact that flynn actually did commit serious crimes and disgrace the army and his country. 

imagine if hillary started taking foreign money to lobby without disclosing.  and then got convicted and tried to get it reversed bc she didnt know she shouldnt lie to the fbi.

THE COURT: Do you wish to challenge the circumstances on
which you were interviewed by the FBI?
FLYNN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you understand that by maintaining your
guilty plea and continuing with sentencing, you will give up your
right forever to challenge the circumstances under which you were
interviewed?
FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have any concerns that you entered your
guilty plea before you or your attorneys were able to review
information that could have been helpful to your defense?
FLYNN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: At the time of your January 24th, 2017
interview with the FBI, were you not aware that lying to FBI
investigators was a federal crime?
FLYNN: I was aware.
THE COURT: You were aware?
FLYNN: Yeah.
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