ripple: let's test it! - page 23. | Bitcointalksearch.org

molecular

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Quote from: grondilu on February 23, 2013, 06:48:06 AM

Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 06:47:21 AM

you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple

ok let's do this.

we did using #ripple and it basically failed saying "you have no trust line in this currency"

Code:

hi
cool
so, can you establish trust to bitinstant now?
so I must add it as contact first right?
rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B <- bitinstant
don't know, but it makes sense anyway
shit
should I check this or should I trust you ;) ?
I keep saying bitinstant... it's BITSTAMP
please check
ok hang on a sec
I can't find their ripple address on their website
* Akka ([email protected]) has joined #ripple
it seems that I need to register to bitstamp first to see their address
* grondilu opens an account
Is your account funded now, or do you still need XRP? I could send you some.
hi akka
a moment
I confirm rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B as the ripple address for bitstamp
ok
I'm funded
I trust bistamp for 1 USD
so let's do step 1.)
I send 0.1 USD to grondilu
* abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
I cannot enter this, but it should be bitstamp IOU USDs
I can't trust grundilu - reason Missing/inapplicable prior transaction
http://i.imgur.com/UyegmIX.png <- sent 0.1 USD to grondilu
@Akka: had this before. try reloading the page. you will likely have to login again
http://i.imgur.com/tUgOhma.png <- tx is in history,... twice
I did receive 0.1 USD
nice!
is there any way you can see wether these are IOU of bitstamp?
ok, let's setup 2.) trust relationships should be as follows:
a) grondulu trusts bitstamp with USD
b) akka trusts grondilu with USD
they are labelled as "USD - US Dollar"
c) akka doe NOT strust bitstamp with USD
OK I now trust you both, if you remove each other it shpould be possible to make a transaktion through me, without me to you bitintant accounts without me even seeing it.
oh
d) akka does NOT trust molecular with USD
because otherwise you would just receive molecular IOUs I guess
* grondilu starts to feel a headache
I do 5 USD - rpH3zuMch2GrrYX724xGWwbMGwiQ5RbSAU
argh
What I described is a transaction from molecualr -> akka
through grondilu
Akka, you should not trust me for this test to work
only trust grondilu
so the USD will be converted from bitstamp IOUs to grondilu IOUs
OK - so I set my trust to you to 0 and to grondilu to 5 than you should be able to send me USD through him, right?
exactly
tell me when you're done
I don't trust you anymore
so done
it failed: http://i.imgur.com/iKUvg5F.png, http://i.imgur.com/vrt9v8d.png
I don't have to do anything, right? You intend to use the transitivity of the trust system?
"you have no trust line in this currency"
hmmm
@grondilu, yes
seems it can't find a path
I'm not sure this is how it's supposed to work.
second try gives different error: "Your transaction failed to clear, reason: Missing/inapplicable prior transaction."
will restart client
All I need to do is trust grondilu? Or do I have to open a bitstamp account, too?
no
no account necessary and no trust should be necessary to bitstamp
at least the way I understand it
definitely no account necessary
failed again with first error message
Hang on. I did put only 1 USD trust into bitstamp. So maybe that's not enough.
that's enough
tried sending USD 0.2
then it's not supposed to be transitive.
grondilu: not that I think it's necessary but maybe we could try you putting trust to me with USD? or do you already have that?
no. Let me try.
you're r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1, right?
oh, I just realized something: I think my USD are not bitstamp USD. I acquired these through some trade!!!
rpH3zuMch2GrrYX724xGWwbMGwiQ5RbSAU <- molecular
no, you got wrong address there
r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1 <- akka
Correct
hmmm
anyone sells xrp for btc?
damnit, how can I check what IOU my USD are?
@depends, if you only nees some to activate your account I gift them to you
no, actually they must be bitstamp USD. Can see it on the trust page: http://i.imgur.com/6bob758.png
moleccc: I added 1 USD trust from you
ok, will try sending 0.2 USD to akka agin
"You have no trust line in this currency."
it's not working as I would expect ;)
" then it's not supposed to be transitive." <- that'd be bad, no?
grondilu -> rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo ?
Akka: yes
moleccc: mayybe on the contrary, it's a good thing.
this means you can receive IOUs only from people you directly trust.
I don't think so. It should work. The user just wants to send USD, and if akka trusts grondilu IOUs its ok for Akka to receive grondiluUSD
grondilu: trust itself is not transitive
Maybe. I need to read more about this stuff
ok, let's just call this test FAIL and we obviously need to learn more ;)
That's the way I understand it. And if grundilu trust monecular we should have a path.
I'll post transcript to the thread if that's ok with you guys?
ok
OK

grondilu

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Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 06:47:21 AM

you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple

ok let's do this.

molecular

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you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple

molecular

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Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: grondilu on February 23, 2013, 06:40:28 AM

Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 06:30:25 AM

I would like to test 2 things with you guys:

1.) sending bitinstantUSD: let me send you USD 0.1. you'll need to establish bitinstant-trust for USD of at least 0.1 USD

2.) sending USD through trust-chain: let's say some other dude (who wants to be that dude?) wants to receive USD 0.2 from me and I want to send him. He doesn't trust bitinstant. Let's say he trusts grondilu, though. He could establish trust of USD 0.2 on grondilu. I should then be able to send him 0.2 bitinstantUSD which will be converted to grondiluUSD on-the-fly. Correct?

anyone want to help? grondilu?

I'm ok to receive your 0.1 bitinstandUSD, but I can't establish any trust right now, as I'm told:

« You have to be funded before you can grant a trust »

you don't have XRP?

I think you need 300, let me send...

EDIT: I sent you 350 ripples. You can give them back later when you received your 50,000.

molecular

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Quote from: Akka on February 23, 2013, 06:37:14 AM

I'm don't have a bitinstant account yet.

But I would like to test this, too.

So I could be the middle man. What would I have to do?

r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1

Edit: Added Monecular for 5 UDS but I can't add grondilu, reason "account doesn't exist"

you don't need a bitstamp account. Just trust in them. Address is: rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B

then we can try 1.)

grondilu

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Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 06:30:25 AM

I would like to test 2 things with you guys:

1.) sending bitinstantUSD: let me send you USD 0.1. you'll need to establish bitinstant-trust for USD of at least 0.1 USD

2.) sending USD through trust-chain: let's say some other dude (who wants to be that dude?) wants to receive USD 0.2 from me and I want to send him. He doesn't trust bitinstant. Let's say he trusts grondilu, though. He could establish trust of USD 0.2 on grondilu. I should then be able to send him 0.2 bitinstantUSD which will be converted to grondiluUSD on-the-fly. Correct?

anyone want to help? grondilu?

I'm ok to receive your 0.1 bitinstandUSD, but I can't establish any trust right now, as I'm told:

« You have to be funded before you can grant a trust »

Akka

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I'm don't have a bitinstant account yet.

But I would like to test this, too.

So I could be the middle man. What would I have to do?

r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1

Edit: Added Monecular for 5 UDS but I can't add grondilu, reason "account doesn't exist"

molecular

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Quote from: grondilu on February 23, 2013, 06:21:19 AM

Here I am:

rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo

I would like to test 2 things with you guys:

1.) sending bitinstantUSD: let me send you USD 0.1. you'll need to establish bitinstant-trust for USD of at least 0.1 USD

2.) sending USD through trust-chain: let's say some other dude (who wants to be that dude?) wants to receive USD 0.2 from me and I want to send him. He doesn't trust bitinstant. Let's say he trusts grondilu, though. He could establish trust of USD 0.2 on grondilu. I should then be able to send him 0.2 bitinstantUSD which will be converted to grondiluUSD on-the-fly. Correct?

anyone want to help? grondilu?

grondilu

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Here I am:

rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo

molecular

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Quote from: gweedo on February 23, 2013, 06:10:45 AM

Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 06:06:33 AM

An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):

wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?

It sounds like a feature, I can be completely wrong on this, but it sounds like those orders were created with the lines of trust you established with people, so they kinda are your orders but not really. Someone tell me if I am wrong, still trying to learn a lot here.

According to Joel (post #181) something like this should not happen.

Quote from: JoelKatz on February 23, 2013, 03:19:49 AM

Quote from: markm on February 23, 2013, 03:15:44 AM

Could it be other people's exchanges on the markets are Rippling through you?

These can only result in one of two things happening:

1) IOUs that you used to hold from one issuer you now hold from a different issuer in the same currency. (And unless you do something very unusual, in the same amount.)

2) Offers that you placed are taken or partially taken. Your balance in the currency/issuer you are selling will decrease and the one you are buying will increase.

To be honest, I don't fully understand how the client presents offers. There's an open issue to make it clearer.

In laymans terms to me this means: auto-trading only happens within the same currency (and different issuer) and: trades between different currencies only ever happen based on an order entered by the user.

So I think your suspicion is incorrect.

gweedo

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Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 06:06:33 AM

An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):

wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?

It sounds like a feature, I can be completely wrong on this, but it sounds like those orders were created with the lines of trust you established with people, so they kinda are your orders but not really. Someone tell me if I am wrong, still trying to learn a lot here.

Monster Tent

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Quote from: molecular on February 23, 2013, 05:07:56 AM

Quote from: Belkaar on February 23, 2013, 04:58:24 AM

So am I correct to assume that ripple is designed to allow fractional reserve banking at the gateways?
I think this will happen:
- 1000 users at a gateway will deposit 10 BTC each and extend trust over 10BTC to said gateway.
- The gateway should hold 10000 BTC to cover the trust.
- The gateway will monitor how many BTC are withdrawn and deposited per day over time, say 1000 BTC
- The gateway will only keep 2000 BTC on hand.
So we have 2000 real bitcoins that back 10000 ripple-BTC-IOUs and this will work until there is a bank-run on the gateway at which point the gateway can't pay up and the people will start revoking their trust.

I think this is correct.

However it is not unreasonable to expect that there will be a competitive market in gateways. One of the selling point will be the advertised reserve ratio and its auditability (easy with BTC). Other ones will be the fees and general reputation/trustworthiness of the entity.

I'm thinking of this:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking

Free Banking
Free banking refers to a monetary arrangement in which banks are subject to no special regulations beyond those applicable to most enterprises, and in which they also are free to issue their own paper currency (banknotes). In a free banking system, market forces control the supply of total quantity of banknotes and deposits that can be supported by any given stock of cash reserves, where such reserves consist either of a scarce commodity (such as gold) or of an artificially limited stock of "fiat" money issued by a central bank. In the strictest versions of free banking, however, there either is no role at all for a central bank, or the supply of central bank money is supposed to be permanently "frozen." There is, therefore, no agency capable of serving as a "lender of last resort" in the usually understood sense of the term. Nor is there any government insurance of banknotes or bank deposit accounts.

sounds good to me. free market for banks.

Do any current bitcoin exchanges have a public bitcoin address that shows their current reserves ?

molecular

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Activity: 2772

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An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):

wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?

molecular

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Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: Belkaar on February 23, 2013, 04:58:24 AM

So am I correct to assume that ripple is designed to allow fractional reserve banking at the gateways?
I think this will happen:
- 1000 users at a gateway will deposit 10 BTC each and extend trust over 10BTC to said gateway.
- The gateway should hold 10000 BTC to cover the trust.
- The gateway will monitor how many BTC are withdrawn and deposited per day over time, say 1000 BTC
- The gateway will only keep 2000 BTC on hand.
So we have 2000 real bitcoins that back 10000 ripple-BTC-IOUs and this will work until there is a bank-run on the gateway at which point the gateway can't pay up and the people will start revoking their trust.

I think this is correct.

However it is not unreasonable to expect that there will be a competitive market in gateways. One of the selling point will be the advertised reserve ratio and its auditability (easy with BTC). Other ones will be the fees and general reputation/trustworthiness of the entity.

I'm thinking of this:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking

Free Banking
Free banking refers to a monetary arrangement in which banks are subject to no special regulations beyond those applicable to most enterprises, and in which they also are free to issue their own paper currency (banknotes). In a free banking system, market forces control the supply of total quantity of banknotes and deposits that can be supported by any given stock of cash reserves, where such reserves consist either of a scarce commodity (such as gold) or of an artificially limited stock of "fiat" money issued by a central bank. In the strictest versions of free banking, however, there either is no role at all for a central bank, or the supply of central bank money is supposed to be permanently "frozen." There is, therefore, no agency capable of serving as a "lender of last resort" in the usually understood sense of the term. Nor is there any government insurance of banknotes or bank deposit accounts.

sounds good to me. free market for banks.

Belkaar

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So am I correct to assume that ripple is designed to allow fractional reserve banking at the gateways?
I think this will happen:
- 1000 users at a gateway will deposit 10 BTC each and extend trust over 10BTC to said gateway.
- The gateway should hold 10000 BTC to cover the trust.
- The gateway will monitor how many BTC are withdrawn and deposited per day over time, say 1000 BTC
- The gateway will only keep 2000 BTC on hand.
So we have 2000 real bitcoins that back 10000 ripple-BTC-IOUs and this will work until there is a bank-run on the gateway at which point the gateway can't pay up and the people will start revoking their trust.

Question: If I trust A to owe me 1 BTC, then send 0.5 BTC to B, then revoke my trust to A. What happens to the 0.5 BTC B holds? Are they still tradeable?

Here is my ripple-address rJVshcxcxSAXkgzg1PiUQWr5TodTNAETva
Someone wants to try this?

molecular

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Quote from: markm on February 23, 2013, 03:15:44 AM

Could it be other people's exchanges on the markets are Rippling through you?

(A rhetorical question, in the sense that that its not you I am really attempting to elicit an answer from.)

-MarkM-

I will answer anyhow deducing from JoelKatz' answer above: No, that shouldn't result in a trade (between currencies) happening on my balances.

I've read many times and understand that one has to look at the pair currency/issuer. Wouldn't that mean that -say- my USD balance does really "consist" of USD IOUs from different issuers? Maybe that could optionally be displayed in the client for clarity?

molecular

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Quote from: JoelKatz on February 23, 2013, 03:19:49 AM

Quote from: markm on February 23, 2013, 03:15:44 AM

Could it be other people's exchanges on the markets are Rippling through you?

These can only result in one of two things happening:

1) IOUs that you used to hold from one issuer you now hold from a different issuer in the same currency. (And unless you do something very unusual, in the same amount.)

2) Offers that you placed are taken or partially taken. Your balance in the currency/issuer you are selling will decrease and the one you are buying will increase.

To be honest, I don't fully understand how the client presents offers. There's an open issue to make it clearer.

just one quick sub-question: "offer" == "order" or not?

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: Peter Lambert on February 23, 2013, 03:38:09 AM

I have been wondering about the XRP. They were all created at the beginning of ripple, and they are used for each transaction, seems a tiny fraction is used for each time you extend trust, or send a transaction, or place a trade offer. What happens when the XRPs get used up?

Each transaction costs a very tiny fraction of one XRP. The XRP used to open accounts and held for reserve against offers and credit lines are not consumed and can still be used to pay transaction fees. For offers and credit lines, the reserve XRP are released when the object is destroyed.

The thinking is that XRPs will never get used up under any imaginable realistic scenario. The transaction fees and reserve levels can be adjusted by consensus and XRPs are divisible into millionths. If it were ever needed in some far distant future, the protocol could be changed by consensus to make XRP more divisible or to multiply everyone's XRP holdings by a million. But it's hard to imagine any such thing would ever be needed. If we're wildly successful, our great, great grandchildren will be smart enough to figure it out. Wink

Peter Lambert

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It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

I have been wondering about the XRP. They were all created at the beginning of ripple, and they are used for each transaction, seems a tiny fraction is used for each time you extend trust, or send a transaction, or place a trade offer. What happens when the XRPs get used up?

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: markm on February 23, 2013, 03:15:44 AM

Could it be other people's exchanges on the markets are Rippling through you?

These can only result in one of two things happening:

1) IOUs that you used to hold from one issuer you now hold from a different issuer in the same currency. (And unless you do something very unusual, in the same amount.)

2) Offers that you placed are taken or partially taken. Your balance in the currency/issuer you are selling will decrease and the one you are buying will increase.

To be honest, I don't fully understand how the client presents offers. There's an open issue to make it clearer.

Topic: ripple: let's test it! - page 23. (Read 43943 times)