rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 33.

btc-mike

hero member

Activity: 938

Merit: 1001

Quote from: smooth on September 09, 2014, 05:29:54 PM

Quote from: btc-mike on September 09, 2014, 04:43:18 PM

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

So you were doing a lot of different things on your 8 GB computer, and your computer can't handle it all, meanwhile someone else is using Monero and some small applications a 4 GB computer, yet you choose to identify Monero as the culprit? The bias here is pretty obvious.

The only thing obvious is you are over-reacting. I said was running other system intensive apps at the time and had problems when I added XMR. I quickly figured out Monero needed more resources than expected and adjusted my usage.

The main point of my post is still valid. In its current state, XMR requires a lot of resources. If you "extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with ~~8GB~~ 4GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality."

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 09, 2014, 06:32:41 PM

Quote

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions. Angry

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

Bitcoin and all altcoins except XMR run on her emachine.

I thought all users were welcome, not just uber geeks.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: smooth on September 09, 2014, 05:29:54 PM

Quote from: btc-mike on September 09, 2014, 04:43:18 PM

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

So you were doing a lot of different things on your 8 GB computer, and your computer can't handle it all, meanwhile someone else is using Monero and some small applications a 4 GB computer, yet you choose to identify Monero as the culprit? The bias here is pretty obvious.

Quote

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions. Angry

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: btc-mike on September 09, 2014, 04:43:18 PM

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

So you were doing a lot of different things on your 8 GB computer, and your computer can't handle it all, meanwhile someone else is using Monero and some small applications a 4 GB computer, yet you choose to identify Monero as the culprit? The bias here is pretty obvious.

TheKoziTwo

legendary

Activity: 1552

Merit: 1047

Quote from: bobabouey2 on September 09, 2014, 03:47:40 PM

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on September 09, 2014, 07:54:36 AM

I already posted this in the monero topic, but I think it's worth posting here as well. I have parsed the ANN topic for monero, boolberry, bytecoin, ducknote and darkcoin. Figured it would be interesting to see these results.

I put them into tables and graphs so its a little easier to compare.

Much better! Thanks a lot.

vokain

legendary

Activity: 1834

Merit: 1019

Quote from: TooDumbForBitcoin on September 09, 2014, 01:51:55 PM

Quote from: r3wt on September 09, 2014, 12:34:23 PM

the idiots that read threads like this...

... are often hard on yourselves.

exactly, take it from him ^ Wink

btc-mike

hero member

Activity: 938

Merit: 1001

Quote from: nioc on September 09, 2014, 04:20:03 PM

Quote from: btc-mike on September 09, 2014, 04:03:02 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 09, 2014, 03:38:55 PM

Quote from: rdnkjdi on September 09, 2014, 03:23:10 PM

Quote

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?" Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin. However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.

OK I get it now. You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing. Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

I will repeat that I only have 4GB, use windows 8.1 and can run XMR. I guess it depends on what else you want to do. I am able to wander the web and play poker at the same time, neither of which are resource intensive.

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

I have hd not ssd. It is a new but minimal computer with a Pentium G3220. My internet is 20/5 Mbps
Maybe I be lucky

smooth

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Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: nioc on September 09, 2014, 04:20:03 PM

Quote from: btc-mike on September 09, 2014, 04:03:02 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 09, 2014, 03:38:55 PM

Quote from: rdnkjdi on September 09, 2014, 03:23:10 PM

Quote

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?" Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin. However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.

OK I get it now. You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing. Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

I will repeat that I only have 4GB, use windows 8.1 and can run XMR. I guess it depends on what else you want to do. I am able to wander the web and play poker at the same time, neither of which are resource intensive.

Maybe the difference is ssd vs hd? Just a guess.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

Quote from: btc-mike on September 09, 2014, 04:03:02 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 09, 2014, 03:38:55 PM

Quote from: rdnkjdi on September 09, 2014, 03:23:10 PM

Quote

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?" Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin. However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.

OK I get it now. You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing. Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

I will repeat that I only have 4GB, use windows 8.1 and can run XMR. I guess it depends on what else you want to do. I am able to wander the web and play poker at the same time, neither of which are resource intensive.

thefunkybits

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1000

XMR Monero looks like a capitulation to 0035 is needed, despite those massive buy walls (I won't be selling any)

XDN duckNote on the otherhand is ready for another leg up!

btc-mike

hero member

Activity: 938

Merit: 1001

Quote from: bobabouey2 on September 09, 2014, 03:47:40 PM

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on September 09, 2014, 07:54:36 AM

I already posted this in the monero topic, but I think it's worth posting here as well. I have parsed the ANN topic for monero, boolberry, bytecoin, ducknote and darkcoin. Figured it would be interesting to see these results.

I put them into tables and graphs so its a little easier to compare.

TKT's data was very informative.

~~I think you missed the number of unique posters for each thread.~~ Oops. It is there. Good job!

btc-mike

hero member

Activity: 938

Merit: 1001

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 09, 2014, 03:38:55 PM

Quote from: rdnkjdi on September 09, 2014, 03:23:10 PM

Quote

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?" Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin. However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.

OK I get it now. You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing. Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

bobabouey2

sr. member

Activity: 248

Merit: 250

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on September 09, 2014, 07:54:36 AM

I already posted this in the monero topic, but I think it's worth posting here as well. I have parsed the ANN topic for monero, boolberry, bytecoin, ducknote and darkcoin. Figured it would be interesting to see these results.

I put them into tables and graphs so its a little easier to compare.

rdnkjdi

legendary

Activity: 1256

Merit: 1009

Quote

Most of the "pruning" (incorrect use of the word but whatever) improvements in Boolberry have not even kicked in yet. CZ said after a year or so is a reasonable target.

Aside from usage and age (Monero is a month older) the differences that are currently active are:

1. 2 minute blocks (BBR) vs 1 minute blocks (XMR). That results in a difference of 720 blocks per day, most of them empty. Empty blocks are about 250 bytes. So 720 of these per day is 180 kbytes per day.

3. Removing dust from mining outputs. There are only 1440 mining outputs per day. At a very, very generous 200 byte usage impact each that would be another 360 kb per day.

All of this adds up 16 megabytes per month, which is hardly anything. It is all usage.

Thank you for the more detailed explanation.

smooth

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Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: rdnkjdi on September 09, 2014, 03:37:17 PM

Quote

IF you didn't got yet, the reason your comment was taken not so kindly is because you are playing on the imaginary fear that the current Monero blockchain size issue will play negatively on Monero adoption and you want to shove this on our face, the fact is this is not only a temporary issue but everyone is aware Monero is alpha-level software, so keep pressing the FUD harder if it helps you sleeping at night or something like that.

If the blockchain size is 8GB it is playing negatively on adoption. Lot of people don't want to open their computers and upgrade ram just to try something out.

Also since the transaction fees went up to .1 to eliminate spamming I believe transactions fell by like 15%? The higher the cost of the blockchain the more friction there is for adoption. Also the higher the hardware requirements the more friction there is for adoption.

I've been accused of being a Monero shill more than once and if this turns into the circlejerks that some ~~most~~ other coins are I won't like it. Also this is the "Altcoin Observer".

Why are you making a big deal about this circlejerk thing?

We are implementing database support to move the blockchain out of RAM okay?

Quote

I'm curious as to what Boolberry's memory/blockchain size would be if it had the transnational volume of Monero with their pruning improvements.

Most of the "pruning" (incorrect use of the word but whatever) improvements in Boolberry have not even kicked in yet. CZ said after a year or so is a reasonable target.

Aside from usage and age (Monero is a month older) the differences that are currently active are:

1. 2 minute blocks (BBR) vs 1 minute blocks (XMR). That results in a difference of 720 blocks per day, most of them empty. Empty blocks are about 250 bytes. So 720 of these per day is 180 kbytes per day.

3. Removing dust from mining outputs. There are only 1440 mining outputs per day. At a very, very generous 200 byte usage impact each that would be another 360 kb per day.

All of this adds up 16 megabytes per month, which is hardly anything. It is all usage.

edit: apparently BBR activated RS trimming today. So my comments above are not technically correct. The are still correct as to magnitudes

rdnkjdi

legendary

Activity: 1256

Merit: 1009

Quote

OK I get it now. You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing. Google it.

I believe my point was lost. Forget it.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

Nekomata how much RAM do you have. I didn't see you mention it and after you did people are talking that 8GB is not enough.

I have 4GB and can run a node. It has been near maxed out for over a month with it seems no change over that time. Somebody was discussing physical RAM vs virtual which may be the reason but I would have no idea.

Edit: iCEBREAKER, I also have no idea or need so far but will google it at some point.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: rdnkjdi on September 09, 2014, 03:23:10 PM

Quote

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?" Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin. However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.

OK I get it now. You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing. Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

rdnkjdi

legendary

Activity: 1256

Merit: 1009

Quote

IF you didn't got yet, the reason your comment was taken not so kindly is because you are playing on the imaginary fear that the current Monero blockchain size issue will play negatively on Monero adoption and you want to shove this on our face, the fact is this is not only a temporary issue but everyone is aware Monero is alpha-level software, so keep pressing the FUD harder if it helps you sleeping at night or something like that.

If the blockchain size is 8GB it is playing negatively on adoption. Lot of people don't want to open their computers and upgrade ram just to try something out.

Also since the transaction fees went up to .1 to eliminate spamming I believe transactions fell by like 15%? The larger the blockchain per transaction the more friction there is for adoption. Also the higher the hardware requirements the more friction there is for adoption.

At some point this friction plays into network effect in how many people adopt it. Not just what's feasible - but whatever is perceived to be likely to keep up with / lower the hardware requirements / "futureproof" is more likely to pull early adopters.

I've been accused of being a Monero shill more than once and if this turns into the circlejerks that some ~~most~~ other coins are I won't like it. Also this is the "Altcoin Observer".

I'm curious as to what Boolberry's memory/blockchain size would be if it had the transnational volume of Monero with their pruning improvements.

*I'm not an investor. I'm an observer. Am I in the wrong thread?

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: dga on September 09, 2014, 03:16:01 PM

The cited paper itself doesn't provide a direct implementation. So no go yet, even though it's from 2007. I could see some arguments for it, but I've got to admit that I'm skeptical about the practical size improvement from the Chandran sqrt(N) scheme in the context of a cryptocurrency like Cryptonote.

The primary benefit would likely be improved security by using higher mix factors, not block chain size, since it doesn't help at all with long term pruning issues, and cheaper large mixes might lead to greater blockchain use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Topic: rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 33. (Read 387526 times)