rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 50.

pa

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Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 11:37:59 PM

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 11:13:19 PM

Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 06:11:09 PM

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 04:11:20 PM

Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 01:32:12 PM

True. But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law. This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

The Securities Act of 1933, section 5(a) for one. There are others which may also pertain, but I am not a domain expert, and prefer to mention only the one which seems relatively straightforward in its application.

Is Poloniex doing anything at all with securities?

Check out the SuperNET threads. I can't bring myself to represent it fairly. But I definitely think the proposal which I originally read was a securities offering.

Quote from: jl777 on September 03, 2014, 06:11:48 PM

DRAFT doc for SuperNET is at http://209.126.70.170/SuperNET.pdf
feedback appreciated

aminorex

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Activity: 1596

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 11:13:19 PM

Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 06:11:09 PM

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 04:11:20 PM

Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 01:32:12 PM

True. But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law. This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

The Securities Act of 1933, section 5(a) for one. There are others which may also pertain, but I am not a domain expert, and prefer to mention only the one which seems relatively straightforward in its application.

Is Poloniex doing anything at all with securities?

Check out the SuperNET threads. I can't bring myself to represent it fairly. But I definitely think the proposal which I originally read was a securities offering.

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1030

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 11:19:54 PM

The eye of the needle was a famous gate in Jerusalem. It was so named because it was very small. A rich man going to heaven being like a camel going through the eye of the needle was particularly apt to his contemporary audience. Not only was it very difficult, but you'd have to remove the packs and possessions, then the camel would have to bow down and be on its knees. The lesson was one of humility, not of impossibility.

That gate wasn't constructed until centuries later. The reinterpretation is thus erroneous.

xulescu

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Activity: 263

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Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 03:28:40 PM

Please do not consider my intemperate, alarmist language as grounds to cease business with Poloniex.

"Let’s don’t be alarmist"

AIG financial officer, September 12th, 2008

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on September 03, 2014, 10:14:12 PM

Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:10:24 PM

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on September 03, 2014, 10:09:31 PM

Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:03:26 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

I think it was a camel ...

That is now assumed to be a translation error, the original words for 'rope' and 'camel' (in Aramaic? Greek?) being very similar.

The eye of the needle was a famous gate in Jerusalem. It was so named because it was very small. A rich man going to heaven being like a camel going through the eye of the needle was particularly apt to his contemporary audience. Not only was it very difficult, but you'd have to remove the packs and possessions, then the camel would have to bow down and be on its knees. The lesson was one of humility, not of impossibility.

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 06:11:09 PM

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 04:11:20 PM

Quote from: aminorex on September 03, 2014, 01:32:12 PM

True. But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law. This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

The Securities Act of 1933, section 5(a) for one. There are others which may also pertain, but I am not a domain expert, and prefer to mention only the one which seems relatively straightforward in its application.

Is Poloniex doing anything at all with securities?
Even Bitshares and XCP aren't traded there as securities.
Nothing they sell is a share of a company, or anything like that, is there?
Again, I am in now way intimate with their business practices, but I'd imagine that would be a hard one to stretch into applying to their business.
They may run into trouble with the CFTC once the Winklevoss do their thing, because then they would run into issues if anyone traded what might amount to a basket, but most of what I see there is pretty small volumes.

georgehosterguy

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Activity: 196

Merit: 12

Quote

If someone died, was buried and came back to life after 3 days, what would you call that today? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zombie-jesus

U win

AnonyMint

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Activity: 518

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Quote from: JorgeStolfi on September 03, 2014, 10:54:39 PM

the miners will charge 4% fee

That is one strong reason why we won't be using Bitcoin. Wink

JorgeStolfi

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Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 10:20:59 PM

So the point is if you are going to use the King's money, than you pay his taxes.

That "if" may be unwarranted... according to random commentaries in the net, the tax in question was a "poll" (per-capita) tax that was due whether one used Caesar's money or not.

But OK, we can save that reading for consolation in the future, when bitcoin inflation will be over and the miners will charge 4% fee on every transaction -- including when you get your pay, when you move it to cold storage, when you take it from cold storage, and when you spend it.

As for that other stuff about the camel/rope, the consensus is fergerit, right?

Quote from: SlipperySlope on September 03, 2014, 10:34:26 PM

I find the Christian Bible enlightening by way of analogy. I hope that altcoins are not the False Gods ...

Do you mean that bitcoin is the True God? Shocked

SlipperySlope

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Activity: 686

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Stephen Reed

I find the Christian Bible enlightening by way of analogy. I hope that altcoins are not the False Gods ...

Deuteronomy 13

Quote

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death.

Emphasis mine. Lots of good stuff in the Bible.

AnonyMint

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Activity: 518

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Quote from: btc-mike on September 03, 2014, 10:22:38 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

"if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Ay naku! Is that your way of saying you moved to the Philippines?

.

btc-mike

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Activity: 938

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

Quote from: rpietila on September 03, 2014, 02:59:36 PM

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game (other than my human weaknesses, we can't entirely avoid that little bastard). The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Ay naku! Is that your way of saying you moved to the Philippines?

AnonyMint

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Activity: 518

Merit: 521

If I remember correctly the parable, Jesus was asked if God's followers should pay taxes (tribute) to the State (King) and he asked for a coin. He looked at the coin and said, "see whose image is on that coin". He said pay to Caesar what is his and to God what is his. So the point is if you are going to use the King's money, than you pay his taxes.

My point about the anonymity is precisely that sometimes you will need to convert to fiat and in those exceptional times, you need to be legal.

Of course I support not converting to fiat as much as possible and not reporting a damn thing[1] when all your txs stay within the anonymous decentralized currency system.

Jesus's point is thus spot on apropos. The wisdom in the Bible is strikingly relevant.

[1] Disclaimer: I am not advising any illegal activity. I am not a professional adviser. Please consult with an appropriate adviser in your jurisdiction.

canth

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Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:13:56 PM

Quote from: canth on September 03, 2014, 10:11:05 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

Quote from: rpietila on September 03, 2014, 02:59:36 PM

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Funny, you're quoting from a ~ 2000 year old book about the world's most famous zombie about how you prefer to avoid fighting zombies.

How exactly are you planning on playing the game? It seems to me that if you're planning to report XMR transactions to your tax authority, that you are already an unlikely user - definitely an outside case. What feature set are you looking for where your transactions are anonymous, private and yet easily accepted by the taxman?

Not sure I'd describe him as a zombie. Jesus was always pissing off the religious crowd of his day. Crazy maybe, zombie not quite applicable.

If someone died, was buried and came back to life after 3 days, what would you call that today? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zombie-jesus

I get -10 pts for continuing this clearly offtopic thread.

JorgeStolfi

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Activity: 910

Merit: 1003

Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:10:24 PM

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on September 03, 2014, 10:09:31 PM

Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:03:26 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

I think it was a camel ...

That is now assumed to be a translation error, the original words for 'rope' and 'camel' (in Aramaic? Greek?) being very similar.

georgehosterguy

member

Activity: 196

Merit: 12

Quote from: canth on September 03, 2014, 10:11:05 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

Quote from: rpietila on September 03, 2014, 02:59:36 PM

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Funny, you're quoting from a ~ 2000 year old book about the world's most famous zombie about how you prefer to avoid fighting zombies.

How exactly are you planning on playing the game? It seems to me that if you're planning to report XMR transactions to your tax authority, that you are already an unlikely user - definitely an outside case. What feature set are you looking for where your transactions are anonymous, private and yet easily accepted by the taxman?

Not sure I'd describe him as a zombie. Jesus was always pissing off the religious crowd of his day. Crazy maybe, zombie not quite applicable.

Quote

That is now assumed to be a translation error, the original words for 'rope' and 'camel' (in Aramaic? Greek?) being very similar.

Interesting

canth

legendary

Activity: 1442

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

Quote from: rpietila on September 03, 2014, 02:59:36 PM

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Funny, you're quoting from a ~ 2000 year old book about the world's most famous zombie about how you prefer to avoid fighting zombies.

How exactly are you planning on playing the game? It seems to me that if you're planning to report XMR transactions to your tax authority, that you are already an unlikely user - definitely an outside case. What feature set are you looking for where your transactions are anonymous, private and yet easily accepted by the taxman?

georgehosterguy

member

Activity: 196

Merit: 12

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on September 03, 2014, 10:09:31 PM

Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:03:26 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

I think it was a camel ...

JorgeStolfi

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1003

Quote from: georgehosterguy on September 03, 2014, 10:03:26 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

georgehosterguy

member

Activity: 196

Merit: 12

Quote from: AnonyMint on September 03, 2014, 09:39:38 PM

Quote from: rpietila on September 03, 2014, 02:59:36 PM

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with moral law and crap ... not crypto/money control???

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