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Topic: rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;) - page 227. (Read 907212 times)

legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
treat the BTC/USD exchange data from New Liberty Standard in 2009 http://newlibertystandard.wikifoundry.com/page/2009+Exchange+Rate, as it can impact my model trend lines. This is the nature of exponential models. Whether the price of 1 BTC was 0.000613 USD or 0.005 USD in December 2009 is actually an important factor here.

I feel the need to comment on this: this is one of the datasets I found when first trying to calculate the long-term trendline. I discarded it entirely, because it is not based on market prices. Of course it is cool to know what is the electricity cost per bitcoin, but one would be greatly in error if composing a similar dataset now and trying to explain the market price with it.

How much is the electricity cost for the newest equipment, btw? 10%?

Yes but what is crucial here is not what the cost of electricity in the overall cost of mining Bitcoin is today, but what it was back in October - December 2009 when the equipment being used, CPUs was mostly all ready paid for and depreciated. Furthermore there is considerable evidence that these costs were used as a basis for offering Bitcoin for sale at the time.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
treat the BTC/USD exchange data from New Liberty Standard in 2009 http://newlibertystandard.wikifoundry.com/page/2009+Exchange+Rate, as it can impact my model trend lines. This is the nature of exponential models. Whether the price of 1 BTC was 0.000613 USD or 0.005 USD in December 2009 is actually an important factor here.

I feel the need to comment on this: this is one of the datasets I found when first trying to calculate the long-term trendline. I discarded it entirely, because it is not based on market prices. Of course it is cool to know what is the electricity cost per bitcoin, but one would be greatly in error if composing a similar dataset now and trying to explain the market price with it.

How much is the electricity cost for the newest equipment, btw? 10%?
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
The chances of this happening are small.
Most bitcoin holders would not be able to hold through a 100X or 200X increase happening so fast.
Bitcoin holders would find themselves sitting on trillions of wealth forcing them to diversify away from bitcoin. This would prevent such steep and sustained increase.

I think all of the above is wrong, because:
- The chances of this happening are surprisingly big, because it is a self-sustaining loop.
- The exchanges are not in the position to deal with it, so it will be very risky to sell bitcoins, trapping most of the current bitcoiners from selling even though they wanted to diversify.
- The countries have issued capital gains tax edicts, which makes you pay $100-$500 million tax per every billion you sell, and you don't have time to scale up your organization and tax planning
- Because your wealth goes up so quickly you are inundated with all kinds of considerations, might go crazy in a positive way or paranoid in a negative, but anyway not able to orderly sell such wealth
- Because price is going up steeply and people are not selling, quite small demand will push the price up ever more steeply until it goes really high and only then collapses. In the final phase of the bubble the price can double with essentially no volume.

TL;DR: There is no real reason why the next bubble would not be able to go to $100,000 even this year.

For me how much BTC I choose to sell, if any, in such a bubble may actually come down to how I choose to treat the BTC/USD exchange data from New Liberty Standard in 2009 http://newlibertystandard.wikifoundry.com/page/2009+Exchange+Rate, as it can impact my model trend lines. This is the nature of exponential models. Whether the price of 1 BTC was 0.000613 USD or 0.005 USD in December 2009 is actually an important factor here.  

In the last bubble (December 2013) and subsequent bear market I have held for the most part increasing my BTC holdings slightly over my position at the beginning of October 2013.  

Capital gains or similar taxes are a very important consideration before selling here. Essentially one is looking for a reasonable chance of being able to buy back at well below 50% of the average sell price in the subsequent bear market. Since one will never be able accurately time the top of the bubble, one is looking for a strong protracted bear market in the aftermath of the bubble.

As for the wealth management aspect of this it is  crucial. One has to learn to see one's net worth fluctuate in a matter of days over even hours by a factor greater than 50X or more of one's entire net worth a year ago, and learn to sleep soundly through the whole affair.

Edit: Exchange risk is also a crucial consideration. Mitigating the effects of a 1,000,000+ USD "goxing" by accepting a 250,000 USD loss. Now multiply this by a factor of 100.
sr. member
Activity: 362
Merit: 250
How would you do variable size?

"Variable" in the sense that each forecaster would be permitted to choose the interval size s/he prefers.

Example: (GT/E=greater than or equal to, LT=less than)
Forecaster 1
GT/ELTProb
10020035%
20040050%
40050015%

Forecaster 2
GT/ELTProb
10070050%
700150050%

When the outcome is ready, the forecasts can be ranked as that other smart guy suggested. Say the outcome is 450. The probability predicted for this by F1 is 0.15% (distributing 15% uniformly over an interval of 500-400=100), and the probability predicted by F2 is 0.08333% (distributing 50% uniformly over an interval of 700-100=600). F1 would win.

The rest of the comments (base 10 or e, log or not, the scoring system, etc.) is really only a matter of taste. To each his own!

Edit: Let me clarify: I suggested base e because of the formula for continuously compounding interest. It's a very useful choice in very, very many circumstances, although it may not be as easy on the eyes as base 10.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
The chances of this happening are small.
Most bitcoin holders would not be able to hold through a 100X or 200X increase happening so fast.
Bitcoin holders would find themselves sitting on trillions of wealth forcing them to diversify away from bitcoin. This would prevent such steep and sustained increase.

I think all of the above is wrong, because:
- The chances of this happening are surprisingly big, because it is a self-sustaining loop.
- The exchanges are not in the position to deal with it, so it will be very risky to sell bitcoins, trapping most of the current bitcoiners from selling even though they wanted to diversify.
- The countries have issued capital gains tax edicts, which makes you pay $100-$500 million tax per every billion you sell, and you don't have time to scale up your organization and tax planning
- Because your wealth goes up so quickly you are inundated with all kinds of considerations, might go crazy in a positive way or paranoid in a negative, but anyway not able to orderly sell such wealth
- Because price is going up steeply and people are not selling, quite small demand will push the price up ever more steeply until it goes really high and only then collapses. In the final phase of the bubble the price can double with essentially no volume.

TL;DR: There is no real reason why the next bubble would not be able to go to $100,000 even this year.

Risto I love it when you talk all bullish like this!  Grin

First world problem we might face:  We can't cash out thousands of dollars from our Bitcoins fast enough. Wink

Right now is a good time to start planning for such scenarios.  Using the SSS plan as a guide and deciding how to, unemotionally, take advantage of the next bubble.  

donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
I read the proposals with enthusiasm and thought, which one would be easier for the forecasters - producing a continuous probability distribution, or producing a discrete distribution like the one below. The ones who can handle continuous distributions, can easily process them to give piecewise results, but not necessarily the other way round.

Sensible. I agree.

I would propose that the ones who want to participate, need to produce a table that gives the probabilities (adding to 100.00%) for each log slot. The slots would be with 0.05 intervals like below. Eg. 3.00-3.05 == $1,000-$1,122. Once the correct result is known, we take a geometric mean of the probabilities given to that slot in the predictions. Then you get + or - points depending if your prob was higher or lower than the average. Eg. if your prob was 8% and average was 4%, you get 8/4-1 = 1 point. If your prob was 1% and average was 3%, you get -3/1+1 = -2 points.

Mostly sensible. Comments/Questions:
1) I don't see why the intervals would need to be of a fixed size

How would you do variable size?

Quote
2) I don't understand why you need to logarithm (I understand why it's used for modelling, that's fine, but for reporting and interpreting results I don't see the reason)

I have used it for everything in my grand excel for some time now, and don't think much in $ terms anymore. Try it, it works! (How much is bitcoin price today?  - 2.70, down 0.02.)

Of course we should use dollars in reporting.

Quote
3) Furthermore, I find you choice of base 10 unnatural (base e is the natural choice!;)

Base10 is good as you instantly see the round dollar amounts:

$100 == 2.00
$200 == 2.30
$500 == 2.70
$1000 == 3.00 etc.

(doubling == 0.30. tenfolding == 1.00)

Whereas in ln (base e)

$100 == 4.61
$200 == 5.30
$500 == 6.21
$1000 ==   6.91

(doubling == 0.70. tenfolding == 2.30)

Quote
4) What's the exact logic of the point system? Why is there a division and a subtraction/addition? What do the numerators and denominators represent? Why do the points seem asymmetric, i.e. lose more points on a bad guess than you gain with a good guess?

In some fields, such as art, it is important to sometimes hit big, and it does not matter so much if you sometimes produce bad works. In money management it is important to avoid mistakes. Therefore I purposely made the formula such that you are heavily penalized for not awaiting something that the others did, and what indeed happened. Millions of people in the world are forgoing the opportunity to become rich because they have decided not to believe that bitcoin can continue doubling, or even quadrupling in a month.

Quote
5) The intervals need to be in absolute terms, not relative to the price at posting time - otherwise you would also need to keep track of the price at posting time for each prediction (not difficult, just an avoidable pain in the ass)

Sure. I am proposing that the intervals are 0.05 (base10) points wide at round numbers, regardless of the price at posting.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
The chances of this happening are small.
Most bitcoin holders would not be able to hold through a 100X or 200X increase happening so fast.
Bitcoin holders would find themselves sitting on trillions of wealth forcing them to diversify away from bitcoin. This would prevent such steep and sustained increase.

I think all of the above is wrong, because:
- The chances of this happening are surprisingly big, because it is a self-sustaining loop.
- The exchanges are not in the position to deal with it, so it will be very risky to sell bitcoins, trapping most of the current bitcoiners from selling even though they wanted to diversify.
- The countries have issued capital gains tax edicts, which makes you pay $100-$500 million tax per every billion you sell, and you don't have time to scale up your organization and tax planning
- Because your wealth goes up so quickly you are inundated with all kinds of considerations, might go crazy in a positive way or paranoid in a negative, but anyway not able to orderly sell such wealth
- Because price is going up steeply and people are not selling, quite small demand will push the price up ever more steeply until it goes really high and only then collapses. In the final phase of the bubble the price can double with essentially no volume.

TL;DR: There is no real reason why the next bubble would not be able to go to $100,000 even this year.

I totally agree, during the exponential rise, the delays for people to get set up (either to buy or to sell) contributes to the bubble's quick expansion and popping.  Whoever is prepared beforehand is in a position to profit immensely.  If previous bubbles are any indication hardly anyone is prepared (neither buyers nor sellers nor exchanges).
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
[quote

Serious alts are relatively safe to invest in. Peercoin, Dogecoin, Namecoin and most others who have a raison-d'etre have been doing great and actually lost less value than Bitcoin since yesterday.
http://media.giphy.com/media/9rWmUuwkNQvra/giphy.gif

LOL
I did believe doge was garbage until i read these
http://www.coindesk.com/dogecoin-founder-enthusiasts-set-san-francisco-convention/
http://www.coindesk.com/us-exchange-coinmkt-launches-api-adds-dogecoin-trading/

but i guess doge has potential
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1001
Serious alts are relatively safe to invest in. Peercoin, Dogecoin, Namecoin and most others who have a raison-d'etre have been doing great and actually lost less value than Bitcoin since yesterday.

One of the biggest risks for alts is that I cannot be bothered to manage the private keys for a zillion alts. I do this for my significant investments, but I keep a lot of baby alts on cryptsy (small amounts only), and we all know what can happen when you keep your coins on a centralized exchange ...
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 1035
[quote

Serious alts are relatively safe to invest in. Peercoin, Dogecoin, Namecoin and most others who have a raison-d'etre have been doing great and actually lost less value than Bitcoin since yesterday.
http://media.giphy.com/media/9rWmUuwkNQvra/giphy.gif
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1001
Agree with all of what rpietila said. But for me, especially this:
- The countries have issued capital gains tax edicts, which makes you pay $100-$500 million tax per every billion you sell, and you don't have time to scale up your organization and tax planning
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
The chances of this happening are small.
Most bitcoin holders would not be able to hold through a 100X or 200X increase happening so fast.
Bitcoin holders would find themselves sitting on trillions of wealth forcing them to diversify away from bitcoin. This would prevent such steep and sustained increase.

I think all of the above is wrong, because:
- The chances of this happening are surprisingly big, because it is a self-sustaining loop.
- The exchanges are not in the position to deal with it, so it will be very risky to sell bitcoins, trapping most of the current bitcoiners from selling even though they wanted to diversify.
- The countries have issued capital gains tax edicts, which makes you pay $100-$500 million tax per every billion you sell, and you don't have time to scale up your organization and tax planning
- Because your wealth goes up so quickly you are inundated with all kinds of considerations, might go crazy in a positive way or paranoid in a negative, but anyway not able to orderly sell such wealth
- Because price is going up steeply and people are not selling, quite small demand will push the price up ever more steeply until it goes really high and only then collapses. In the final phase of the bubble the price can double with essentially no volume.

TL;DR: There is no real reason why the next bubble would not be able to go to $100,000 even this year.

sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 253
Auroracoin has tanked big time. Spaincoin has also declined significantly since its highs.

Bitcoin: only invest what you can afford to lose.

Alts: only invest what you can lose without even noticing that it's gone ....

Serious alts are relatively safe to invest in. Peercoin, Dogecoin, Namecoin and most others who have a raison-d'etre have been doing great and actually lost less value than Bitcoin since yesterday.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
The chances of this happening are small.
Most bitcoin holders would not be able to hold through a 100X or 200X increase happening so fast.
Bitcoin holders would find themselves sitting on trillions of wealth forcing them to diversify away from bitcoin. This would prevent such steep and sustained increase.

I think all of the above is wrong, because:
- The chances of this happening are surprisingly big, because it is a self-sustaining loop.
- The exchanges are not in the position to deal with it, so it will be very risky to sell bitcoins, trapping most of the current bitcoiners from selling even though they wanted to diversify.
- The countries have issued capital gains tax edicts, which makes you pay $100-$500 million tax per every billion you sell, and you don't have time to scale up your organization and tax planning
- Because your wealth goes up so quickly you are inundated with all kinds of considerations, might go crazy in a positive way or paranoid in a negative, but anyway not able to orderly sell such wealth
- Because price is going up steeply and people are not selling, quite small demand will push the price up ever more steeply until it goes really high and only then collapses. In the final phase of the bubble the price can double with essentially no volume.

TL;DR: There is no real reason why the next bubble would not be able to go to $100,000 even this year.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
Hey, I am glad someone else mentioned ethereum, will you or anyone else reading this buy the ether coins when they come out?  1 btc/1000 eth I think.  Would this be a smart investment?

I have about 5-10% of my crypto investment spread across some of the major altcoins -- mostly litecoin, but a few others as well. If you're in the mood to gamble, you might want to convert some bitcoin into some cheap-o alts before the next parabolic rise in bitcoin, then convert back into bitcoin after the parabolic rise. But I consider this to be "speculation" (trying to predict what the market will do based on psychology rather than fundamentals) which is less worthy of respect than investing, which is based on one's understanding of market fundamentals.

As for ether, I'll probably buy a little bit, but I plan to reassess when it comes out. I read something recently by Vitalik about bitcoin sidechains in which he said that Ethereum would probably not work as a sidechain, bc it's too different, but he also indicated that Ethereum could work *with* bitcoin and other alts as opposed to being a competitor that might replace bitcoin. As a long term bitcoin investor, I am encouraged by that. Smiley

Why would you get out of bitcoin BEFORE it's parabolic rise? I must be missing something.

Yea I found that a little strange.   Maybe he made an error?

No he did not. Take a look at LTC/BTC https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/btce/ltcbtc for example. The peaks in LTC/BTC tend to coincide with the peaks in BTC/USD and vice versa with the lows. I sold my NMC for BTC close to the December 2013 peak for this reason at around 0.012. Today I would get less than half the amount of BTC.

If one wants to panic sell out of BTC at the bottom of a bear market running to one of the "senior" alt coins such as LTC or NMC may actually make a lot of sense.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1001
Yea that makes sense.  But I would be careful of newer alts.  They seemed to be pumped and dumped some times.  It would have been good to get into auroracoin before it got big, but now I am not sure where it is (probably not steadily increasing).

Auroracoin has tanked big time. Spaincoin has also declined significantly since its highs.

Bitcoin: only invest what you can afford to lose.

Alts: only invest what you can lose without even noticing that it's gone ....
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 280
(...)
3) Furthermore, I find you choice of base 10 unnatural (base e is the natural choice!;)

That would be rally interesting!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Why would you get out of bitcoin BEFORE it's parabolic rise? I must be missing something.
The long term goal would be to increase one's bitcoin portfolio. The reasoning is that over the past few runs, when bitcoin gets on a parabolic rise versus fiat, altcoins rise significantly versus bitcoin. In between, the alts tend to fall versus bitcoin.

Once again, there's part of me that is not exactly "proud" of this strategy; it's game playing, and I see myself as an investor, not a speculator, in crypto. So I only do it with a very small fraction of my bitcoin investment. In a way, I see it as a test of whether I think I can outguess the crypto market.

Yea that makes sense.  But I would be careful of newer alts.  They seemed to be pumped and dumped some times.  It would have been good to get into auroracoin before it got big, but now I am not sure where it is (probably not steadily increasing).
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1001
Why would you get out of bitcoin BEFORE it's parabolic rise? I must be missing something.
The long term goal would be to increase one's bitcoin portfolio. The reasoning is that over the past few runs, when bitcoin gets on a parabolic rise versus fiat, altcoins rise significantly versus bitcoin. In between, the alts tend to fall versus bitcoin.

Once again, there's part of me that is not exactly "proud" of this strategy; it's game playing, and I see myself as an investor, not a speculator, in crypto. So I only do it with a very small fraction of my bitcoin investment. In a way, I see it as a test of whether I think I can outguess the crypto market.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hey, I am glad someone else mentioned ethereum, will you or anyone else reading this buy the ether coins when they come out?  1 btc/1000 eth I think.  Would this be a smart investment?

I have about 5-10% of my crypto investment spread across some of the major altcoins -- mostly litecoin, but a few others as well. If you're in the mood to gamble, you might want to convert some bitcoin into some cheap-o alts before the next parabolic rise in bitcoin, then convert back into bitcoin after the parabolic rise. But I consider this to be "speculation" (trying to predict what the market will do based on psychology rather than fundamentals) which is less worthy of respect than investing, which is based on one's understanding of market fundamentals.

As for ether, I'll probably buy a little bit, but I plan to reassess when it comes out. I read something recently by Vitalik about bitcoin sidechains in which he said that Ethereum would probably not work as a sidechain, bc it's too different, but he also indicated that Ethereum could work *with* bitcoin and other alts as opposed to being a competitor that might replace bitcoin. As a long term bitcoin investor, I am encouraged by that. Smiley

Why would you get out of bitcoin BEFORE it's parabolic rise? I must be missing something.

Yea I found that a little strange.   Maybe he made an error?
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