Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 356. (Read 80106 times)

No country ever attacked another country, if you ask people of said country.

100k Poland people mass suicided, just so they could accuse Bandera

There were no threats to russia from Ukraine, Ukraine has never attacked any country, never in its history. We are a peaceful people and have not threatened anyone. What is happening now is an invasion based on false propaganda. Most Russians support this and this is not normal in a civilized world, such a crime cannot be left unpunished, every guilty person will answer for it.

I meant for NATO to attack Russia, we all know it'll be only one country making that call. After bombing of Yugoslavia NATO cannot technically be called a "defensive" pact. If US declares war on Russia it'll do it under NATO no-fly zone, NATO intervention etc... Russia will have 30 nations declaring war on it and start attacking its air force. And people are willing to bet their lives that Russia won't use it's nuke arsenal under such circumstances? US used nukes on Japan for much dumber reasons.


US is the biggest unknown. Not a fan of Trump but with upcoming food shortages and gas prices, it's just too easy for a populist to win, Biden's ratings are already down and we're at the top of the hype. Think Biden is a lost cause, and that's an additional headache for EU. Consequences of their decision with Russia will be long term and painful, where any promises of support from US can flip in 2 years. Anyone seriously think that Trump will keep EU as a priority vs making America great once again, especially when China will be overtaking US?


Trades happen because they're beneficial for both parties, have you considered that maybe those cheap(er) natural resources what helped Germany become/stay where they are now? Do you think it can continue to stay competitive in global economy with it's high labor costs and now with natural resources say costing 20% more over China? Really doubt that their margins are that high. Germany already had to support economies of Greece, Portugal, Cyprus... pretty sure they didn't care and were fine with UA as it was pre 2014, and thinking WTF are you doing when US decided to hand out those freedom cookies. Don't see a good way out for them, oil/gas is a commodity, so it doesn't really matter how you shuffle it around the globe, all you're doing is making distribution less efficient. Freedom LNG from US would be at 20% premium and still won't cover their needs. Now on April 1st EU will have to start buying rubles to pay for gas while somehow trying to save face. One thing Russia has going for it is that after hitting the bottom it's hard to fall any lower, but EU still has a lot at risk and stuck between a rock and a hard place. These events can be a footnote in global history where (outside of UA) in 10yrs most won't remember it or it can end it.

I don't have FT subscription, but found some more details on Russian BBC website:
https://cutt.ly/eDvJcH4
From this article it seems that Russia only don't agree about Ukraine joining NATO. They don't want to denazify and demilitarize Ukraine. They are even OK with Ukraine joining EU. In whole context for me it doesn't sounds realistic, despite that FT is not some yellow press. But if it's true, it's interesting how Bitcointalk trolls will react to it.

It's Mariupol. People can't be even buried properly because of never ending shooting. Streets is full of dead people. They have no other choice than bury them in the yards and gardens:
https://www.rferl.org/a/mariupol--escape-russian-siege-ukraine/31771645.html
It's something terrible what's happening in this city and it's hard to find words to describe what's going on there.

Putin, not Russia IMHO.

I still can’t believe how long this has been going on. Absolutely terrible that civilians are dying as a result of Russia’s actions. I’m reading reports that there are cities where the dead aren’t even being cleaned up. They’re just littering the streets. Now you’re hearing about Ukrainian soldiers shooting captive Russian soldiers in the kneecaps. It’s just a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. It’s dumbfounding how this type of conflict can exist today. Russia’s claims appear a bit paranoid and they’re coming off a bit like the United States as we invaded Iraq for imaginary weapons.

FT reports that Putin may no longer demand "denazification":

https://www.ft.com/content/7f14efe8-2f4c-47a2-aa6b-9a755a39b626 (paywall)


This might be a tough time for Kremlin-paid bitcointalkers so please be kind to them while they are waiting for new talking points and are trying to forget everything they said about nazis in Ukraine.

In reality of course it's all bullshit because nothing Putin says or does can be trusted.

False. A referendum requires effective peace, international observers, and agreed right to participation, and public discussion. There has not been any vote or referendum with the minimum guarantees of democracy and fairness, just a faked putsch that not even the most ignorant would accept. From your own reference article:


I hope that whoever the new "s..hole" results is better at filmaking.

Sooner or later someone had to replace North Korea is the official shi|t hole of the world
Roses Have Thorns (Part 6) The Odessa Massacre
https://youtu.be/QxcB0PI4ZLg

Tash,

We've been over this.  

If you're so concerned about Nazis, then it should be the ones running the Donetsk People's Republic, not the ones in Ukraine that have no political power.  

From your own link:

Answered over and over, Putin has been supporting the paramilitary pro-annexation. Putin has tried to make the case for a genocide in international institutions and failed to provide any evidence. Putin would not go to war on the ground of anyone being killed except himself, he is one of the major murderers of the XXI centuries and cares only about himself and his business.

Launching over and over links with propaganda and inundating a thread with images will not prevent a more productive discussion for those who wish to have one. It may work in Putin's Tzardom where people cannot have access to different views, but it does not work here. Whoever is paying you is wasting the money they need to dig graves for the soldiers.



Seriously? Do you think this is a Indiana Jones movie??

And the over 16000 deaths in the last 8 years?

How the Nazis defend

The Yunarmiya exists in Russia, has a patriotic ideology and a power orientation. But this is not Nazism - simply because Russia is a very multinational country, different religions, different language groups, Russia's ideology is supranational and its political ambitions are more of an imperial nature.

Ukraine has a birth trauma from the break with Russia after the collapse of the USSR, and it elevated its nationalism to the absolute, making it radical. Ukraine had a chance to build its own future - original and free, if it overcame its inferiority complex and did not rely on anti-Russian rhetoric. You yourself became dependent on the United States and chose the path of a puppet.

It looks like you are a Nazi vulgaris, which in principle is not surprising. I respect the Ukrainian people, their rich history of music, art and literature, but the ultra-right nationalist propaganda that has been implanted as the dominant ideology in the western regions of Ukraine since childhood is turning your people into a herd of mindless jumping baboons, openly chanting anti-Russian chants. I don’t understand what’s the point of setting up this zoo in the center of Europe and instilling in fragile minds the idea of ​​the superiority of the Ukrainian race and that everyone owes you something. Bullying prisoners is the current level of your civilization, and this is very sad.

And the people in Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic have voted to break away, and have the own country.
Zelenskyy, Putin, you, I or anyone else has no say in the matter.
Let me remind you coercion is not legal.

They have a limited say, but an attack on any member is an attack on all. If that is not honoured, NATO would cease to exist. US and other members would take a"proportional response" as it is the standard in diplomacy and war. The choice of means and targets could vary - but certainly the nuclear response is not the first choice to respond to a non-nuclear aggression.



Biden has already enough trouble with his popularity and chances of re-election to do that. He needs something he can sell as a successful peace and there is no way he can do so giving away Ukraine. Also, that would be a huge strategic error for the future and US analysts know that it would leave a less safe - thus more expensive - world behind.


I think that it is very clear which side I am on: best case for Europe and Ukraine. US & China are only getting stronger with this and Putin's Tzardom, insofar as most of their population seem to be quite apathic about how they are governed, is not of my concern other than their ability to cause problems to others.

Certainly, not a war with WMD would fit a desirable solution to any party, which is the point of my post.

Again, I think that my position on this is very clear, but if I have to make it even more clear: a solution that causes a low number of civilian casualties, something the parties can live with given the damage inflicted to both sides, something that can be politically accepted for the relevant stakeholders, and, above all, a solution that does not encourage or that makes economically unfeasible any further conflict in the future.

On regards to your comments on EU, of course, ideally Europe wants this gone ASAP. While short term Germany chose to interlink with Russia, I think their leaders have gotten the message quite clear and the strategic exposure to Russia, while unchangeable short term, can and will be changed during the next five years. You cannot feed the bear no mater how nice he looks when asleep.

On your comment on Ukraine, people all over the world want to progress and "live better" in the ample sense. They know that this is not happening if they are part of the Tzardom. Also, people tend to like feeling free, even if freedom is never perfect something that, again, does not happen under a despotic foreign power's direct control.


As said many times, if you go back in time enough you would have to give it all to the Mongols. Whatever historically happened to a territory is not the base of who and how should hold the legitimate right to govern - that is simply medieval philosophy and justifying ruling and submission "by the grace of God" or on "historical rights of conquest".

In the world today, that right belongs only to the people who actually live in there.

I understand that you being a Kremlin Troll cannot grasp the concept of people choosing their own leaders and governments.

Din't take long for the vultures to turn up and grab a slice of the Ukraine carcass.
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/03/27/poland-will-quietly-take-lviv-ivano-frankivsk-volyn-rovno-if-the-russians-do-not-stop/

Woulda been smarter to let   Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic break away, and thats it.
Heart and soul Dnepropetrovsk and Kirovohrad Oblasts.

I've always somehow just 'sensed' that Russia will arrange for Kiev and Odessa to be easily under their grasp then use them as bargaining chips for a settlement which makes Eastern Ukraine an autonomous or maybe full state (and obviously a client state or protectorate).

My 'instinct' about this might be mostly because it would be about what I'd do to the degree that I understand what Russia probably wants and needs, and what they probably have no interest in.  e.g., trying to deal with a bunch of Ukrainian ultra-nationalist miscreants who are strategically more desirable to have as the West's problem.

It would not surprise me at all of the wrath of the ultra-nationalists would be much more raw toward the West who totally fucked them up the ass.  It's pretty understandable even to them that the Eastern people (even if their grandparents were Soviet era stay-behind settlers) did what they had to do to avoid the attempted genocide that the nationalists were implementing in Donbass.  OTOH, the West promising them the moon and then leaving them high and dry to be decimated when the going got rough has got to sting.  They are already pre-disposed to blame 'the Jews', and it isn't hard to make that case.  I'm not expecting these people to be easy-going and friendly toward anybody for quite some time.  That's not to say that they won't be 'useful' for a variety of operations though.

I think Russia is now in no hurry to invade Western Ukraine, because the ideas of radical nationalism have penetrated very deeply into the mentality and they are almost all Nazis there, demilitarization can transform into mass genocide. It is necessary at least first to completely defeat the regular army of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass in order to demoralize the militants in the Lviv region and try to push them to Poland to the maximum so that this becomes Europe's problem with refugees on its territory.

We all agree that Albania, Hungary, Iceland etc... don't really have any say in NATO right? So in reality, US, who's officially not a party to this conflict, and under no obligation whatsoever, deciding to attack Russia under whichever flag, would probably lead to Nuclear Winter. I mean Putin would have to be a saint to just stand down and save the world. Frankly i just don't see it happening. I'm not an expert on this by any means so imagining that within minutes of the attack a single hypersonic missile with a nuclear warhead lands somewhere in Poland EMP frying some airplanes and troops stationed there getting radiation poisoning. Auto MAD system and Russian Dead Hand are activated. Hundreds of thousands die, and some idiots whom humans somehow bestowed with such powers, pick up the red phones and decide if they should end our civilization.

Realistic case: US sells out Ukraine with some backhanded deal with Russia. Covered in such a way so everyone saves face

Best case, well that depends for who? There are always competing interests but some ideas from top of my head:
-Russia: Ukraine surrendering (4 weeks ago or second best now), and Russia getting it back under it's sphere of influence
-US: Maximize chance of collapsing Russia by maximizing its pain via a proxy up to the last Ukrainian standing
-EU: This thing just going away ASAP, receiving natural resources to keep its heavy industries from collapsing and its population fed and warm during next winter
-Ukraine: Majority of populations just want to live "better" and don't really care about politics. Ukraine was the poorest country in EU and its GDP per capita was almost 4x lower than Russia. So financially, average Ukrainian would most likely be better off, under Russia. Freedom loving part of population are better off not coming back and staying in EU countries. Pretty much just like Cuba.
-China: Costly, long, drawn out conflict requiring huge investments from US with another Marshall Plan for Europe.



Russia is in survival mode. It tried to compete on the soft power field, but its sphere of influence was being taken away with cookies faster than it could grow. They were playing a game that they were meant to loose. Boat was rocked too far, and we're seeing Russia take its last stand.
Truth Is the First Casualty in War always was, and probably will be. Information warfare is a thing and is just another front. US has control over mass media and social networks, so they can just censor unfavorable coverage like this (not safe for life!) and majority would never know about this, if Russia had such soft power it wouldn't have rolled tanks into Ukraine in the first place. Yeah it's fucked up and unfortunately I'm afraid it's only the begging and I fully expect them to follow in US's footsteps like with Kent State massacre