Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 353. (Read 73503 times)

I wonder what kind of strategy it is, can you tell us more about it?


Are you listening to an interview on pro-russian television? You will not be told anything else. The russian invaders are offering some "help" just to record what they are supposed to be giving, to feed their sheep on TV. And in order for Ukrainians to come to them for this disgusting false "help", they first drop bombs on maternity hospitals, clinics and schools. I wonder if you will go for help if your child dies in your arms? Because this is the only case when Ukrainians can ask for ''help'' from these killers.

See what they are actually doing to our people
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/03/19/7332840/


In your opinion, do Russians live well? Is this the country you want to move to on a permanent basis? Is this the country they go to visit en masse? Is this a country where people can be themselves and have the right to freedom of speech? Is this a country that is inventing something new that is changing the lives of the entire planet? Is this a country that can be proud of its innovative approaches? Is this the country that the whole world is now defending? If you answer "yes" to all these questions, then you are fooling yourself. And it's even worse than being deceived by this lying state.

Soros is another such creature.
For a gold watch or coin he would organize a train ticket. By sheer coincident some organizationall mishap happened the the train went to Auschwitz.

Australians with ther peace mobil.


Anyone with eyes can see. (A30B, 1313)

Would you be able to point me to some objective coverage that perhaps uncovers some not so favorable facts or criticizes some decision/aspect from their own side in this conflict? Just like RT all i see is them just painting one side all white and opposing side all black, to get their reader in the friend/foe mindset, so its more of morale booster (winning hearts and minds) than objective news coverage.

We're at the point in news coverage where both sides accuse each other of preparing to use chemical/biological weapons, guessing vials will be next, care to show impressive coverage of this nonsense from any side? I guess anything outside of complete praise automatically puts me in the foe camp, I'm fine being in a foe category to both sides for calling out everyone's BS.

As does Zionism and Nazism.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/239848


Nazis have always been useful, and that is why, again, I'm expecting a lot of 'Nazi problems' in any country which currently has a lot of Jews.  Or at least worthwhile (rich, educated, fanatic, pure-bloodline, etc) Jews.  Certainly that includes the United States.  This happens to align with 'prophecy' which I put some stock into mainly because it 'prophecy' and 'blueprint' are fairly interchangeable in this context.

Well that goes hand in hand.

I'm very impressed with the journalists that are on the ground reporting from media outlets like BBC and NYTimes.

I also read RT.com regularly, and it's pretty clear that the narrative being pushed by Russia is pretty in line with what you're pushing in this thread.  

Hopefully it stops being cool to shit all over independent journalism some day soon.  

No, I don't think that's a good thing and you shouldn't cherry pick information from whichever side you like so that it fits your narrative:


I don't particularly care since your whole civilian-to-military ratio is meaningless. Just pointing out your hypocrisy re "independent information".


Their numbers are likely accurate but also likely late. The full picture is not known in real time and the UN report itself says that the real number is probably much higher.


This was a direct response to your expectation that everyone should be evacuated at once. You must know something no one else does if you think that's possible.


I never said or implied that. Your inability to provide proof is what raises doubts about "nazis" killing civilians in Mariupol (if we're still talking about that; kinda hard to follow your maneuvers). Plenty of proof exists of Russian forces attacking civilian targets. "Can do" and "do" is not the same.

I think you may have outdone yourself with the number if straw people in one post, good job.

media outlets take reasonable steps? Are we talking about the same conflict in this fog of war? surely not Russian media and the other side is not much better. Have you considered that maybe, just maybe you shouldn't believe everything mass media tells you? Especially from countries with direct interest in the conflict, those that are sending weapons to this war? There's a good reason why UN doesn't blindly follow mass media like keyboard warriors, otherwise we'd have these 13 snake island posthumous "Hero of Ukraine" awarded daily to soldiers who surrendered and are in good health. As far as UN's ability to count civilian casualties, don't fool yourself, they have much better access to accurate numbers in Ukraine now than their numbers in Yemen, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Kosovo...

Sure, lets ignore independent information, fact that people are still choosing to evacuate to Russia from UA when given a choice, and long standing standards to quantify aggression of the attacker towards the civilian population. Now care to educate us on which criteria you're using to determine that theres a targeted attack on civilian population of UA, instead of collateral damage? Using that same criteria of yours can you provide an example of other conflicts where civilians were outright targeted and another example following your logic that shows that they weren't? (I fully expect you to just ask another rhetorical question, instead of attempting to address these)

Ahh I see, so at first the reason for keeping the civilians in the city for the siege was their own safety, and now the new reason is that there are just not enough roads to handle over 800 cars (even though 2000 cars managed to leave day prior)?

Your mental gymnastics and reluctance to even allow the possibility of a thought that a neo-nazi battalion can do bad things is truly astonishing.



Edit:

Pretty sure that would be impossible, unless we dissolve UN altogether. It would also defeat the purpose, UN pretty much functions to allow permanent members to pretty much do anything they want to non permanent members, do these proxy wars just so theres no direct confrontation between permanent members themselves, so us humans can continue to survive on this planet. Plus at this point US/Biden is pretty much outright threatening China with consequences, not a good indicator of how they would vote, don't believe its a good idea to push Russia and China together. Frankly with China seeing how financial system can be weaponized, i have no idea how anyone can expects China to continue to buy up US debt after this. Pandora's box might've been opened, so its better for everyone to keep UN during these times, and of course...Bitcoin

There are some indications that the UN security council is seriously considering removing Putin's Russia for the permanent membership. The fact that he is using the nuclear deterrent as a cover for an aggression on a non-nuclear power and has gone as far as "putting the nuclear forces on alert" (mostly for show, as they were not taking the day off anyway) and all the rhetoric about "serious consequences" on interventions is on the verge of getting him kick-off the most influential international forum.

For my part, I would not have any trouble believing that 'the Russians' could and would inflict excess civilian casualties if it were in their interest to do so.  It just seems that in this case, having the upper hand militarily. and the need to maintain some degree of morale among their own population and forces, it just isn't really a logical strategy.  (Most ordinary peeps in the military or not have enough morality such that wanton murder takes a toll on morale.)  The more coherent body of evidence that I can see indicates that they are, if anything, seeking to avoid excess civilian damage.  This is what I would do if I intended to make the region a client-state and buffer zone in the longer term.

It seems to me that the people who have overall control are the Neocon faction of which Victoria Nudelman is a poster-child.  They pretty much completely control the 'Ukrainians' and very likely exert influence over the 'Russians' through Putin and certain of his advisors as well.  Honestly, these people seem to be complete psychopaths to the degree that even absent and advantage to themselves, they would prefer to see destruction, suffering, and general mayhem.  It's almost a religious thing so it seems, but there is also the operational concept that in order to bring 'order out of chaos', one first needs maximum chaos.

Fortunately for the Neocons, the Nazis are stupid enough to be lead by the nose straight to their deaths.

You seem to be confused. UN doesn't base their info on instagram posts so their counts will be trailing until they get it confirmed according to their standards. Media outlets report as they get the info but they take reasonable steps to verify it, at least the ones I'm reading do. They're unlikely to be off by 80 percent or whatever you're suggesting, just reporting earlier than officially confirmed numbers, as can be seen looking at e.g. numbers from the first week of the war.


As if this "ratio" that you're clinging to means anything. Both can be happening at once - Russian soldiers are killing civilians, AND are getting killed themselves.


I don't even know what you're arguing about anymore. Can you pop down to Mariupol and let us know if there is a nice empty unobstructed 12-lane freeway that fits 300 thousand people all at once and if the nazis or zombies or Klingons are messing with it somehow. Maybe you'll find the elusive Mariupol subway too - to debunk the theater bomb shelter conspiracy. Check out Berdyansk on the way and let us know why the humanitarian aid trucks and evacuation buses can't make it to Mariupol.

And that's what it pretty much comes down to. Despite common sense, you have to make yourself believe that Putin, his generals, officers and soldiers all like killing innocent people just so much, to the point where they prefer taking cities with maximum amount of civilians still inside (despite troop morale, contrary to all independent indicators from Red Cross/UN, and lack of any military sense) because alternative would lead to accepting that a neo-nazi battalion is leveraging civilians to stall their own ultimate demise. Apparently some minds are just so set that they're just unable to accept that there are some bad actors in Ukraine.

Factions of the Ukrainian side have been, since very nearly the start of this thing, using civilians as human shields as a strategy.  By most of the interviews I've heard, civilians are reporting that the Russians have been fairly helpful in trying to allow them to leave the combat zones when they can.  This makes logical sense, and most of the actual evidence that I can see backs that up.  This is a good case-in-point where as the Russian gain control, freedom of movement seems to be restored.

Facts are facts, hard to argue against them, can't expect anyone to believe mass media over UN. There's a much higher online presence and cell phone penetration in 2022 Ukraine than in any previous conflicts, so if anything UN numbers would be the most accurate for this war in comparison to any other conflict. Comparing apples to apples, (so far) the numbers just don't support the narrative of trigger happy blood thirsty Russian army going out of their way to kill civilians over their primary objective. Numbers indicate that they're Just getting smoked from every window of every building. With that said any civilian death is a tragedy, as af_newbie pointed out, people loose humanity the longer the war drags on, and the more desperate situation becomes, that's why Red Cross needs to be allowed to continue to do what it does, without any shenanigans.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-17-22/h_50c6d854024131e7fcb716d51fa4b8e2

This is from UA spokesperson. Was really hoping to see over 2000+ cars today, I guess logic being Russia didn't shoot at 2000 cars yesterday, doesn't shoot at 800 cars today but would totally shoot if all civilians were allowed to evacuate at once? How many do you think they'll allow to leave besieged city without food tomorrow, and how many they'll decide to keep in the city out of concern for their safety so people wont get shelled by the Russian side?

Wish Red Cross would provide some data, but nevertheless that's very interesting way of reporting, 800 cars left Mariupol, 2000 people made it through Russian-occupied territory to UA side.  That's 2.5person/car. Either cars leaving besieged city half empty, cars are grabbing coffee taking their time and still driving through Russian side or ...

+1

I think the denazification process goes like this:

Step 1. You shoot a civilian who looks like he/she is not supporting Russian soldiers, i.e. he/she does not wave a Russian flag
Step 2. If he/she dies, well, he/she must have been a Nazi. Go to Step 1.
Step 3. If he/she lives, he/she might not be a Nazi, so you unload the whole magazine in their torso.
Step 4. If he/she dies, well, he/she must have been a Nazi. Go to Step 1.
Step 5. If he/she lives, he/she might not be a Nazi, so leave him/her alone as he/she has been successfully denazified, then go to Step 1.

You execute the above pseudo-code until there are no Nazis in Ukraine.

The process is universal as it can be used on civilians of any age or ethnicity.

Tone complaint, really? You asked for reasons, I gave you reasons, not really my problem that it doesn't meet some arbitrary criteria that you made up or wasn't presented "correctly". You didn't substantiate your own position in any way, other than"nazis could've done it".


All territory around Mariupol is controlled by Russians. That's the main issue. Cities that have Ukrainian-controlled access are being evacuated much more successfully. So whatever straw man you're cooking with that, just save your time and drop it.


Plus 2400 dead in Mariupol and more yet uncounted under rubble. Doesn't fit your narrative though, does it. Even though the UN itself says the number could be "considerably higher".


No one who's seeing destroyed houses, hospitals, schools, etc could imagine Putin having restraint about civilian casualties but here you are. The relatively low numbers (outside of Mariupol) are more likely related to civilians sheltering and evacuating rather than Russian army having any qualms about killing them.

Another "article" that you'll claim proves Putin is the greatest humanitarian: https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-troops-open-fire-bread-line-killing-10-reports-2022-3

Or a nuclear attack. Putin is desperate and people expect him to either blow up a nuclear power plant or use chemical weapons first and then eventually escalate to a small, intimidating nuclear strike, Hiroshima style.


What are you talking about? they aren't really bombing anyone it's just lies by NATO

Spokeswoman of Russian ministry of foreign affairs Maria Zakharova says Russia is not bombing any Ukrainian cities and despite all the fake videos by NATO, everyone will know the truth.
https://twitter.com/iameurmishvili/status/1504416003396194308

I am afraid this war if it does not end in a month or two,  might turn into genocide on both sides.

Right now, Putin is warming up to the idea of bombing hospitals, kindergartens, churches, etc. where people are hiding.

Over time, he will give orders to wipe out whole cities as he did in Chechnya. He will not break Ukrainians unless he kills them all.

Ukrainians, as they progress to the offensive, might be less discriminate who they kill as well, driven by the desire to get revenge,
there is a risk that they will kill all civilians who support or supported Russia during this war.

That is the most likely end result of this war.

Ethnic cleansing protected by Russian nuclear weapons and weak NATO leaders.

That's it and there are at least 2 reasons for that.
1. The West hit Russian citizens by banning certain goods and services so that these citizens put pressure on Putin, so he decided to do the same thing and put pressure on Zelensky by killing his people.
He thinks that civilian casualties may break the fighting spirit of the defenders.
2. Ukrainian soldiers are hiding in basements, they need to house wounded, store ammunition, missile launchers. More people killed in night bombings means less equipment lost the next day.

It becomes easier to pool resources in times of war by huddling together in safe houses or congregating in public buildings, like a church or a library. This is also within the context of probably having no power, plumbing, or clean water. It isn't clear to me whether that might already be the case in the particular area where the theatre bombing occurred, but nonetheless it isn't uncommon. Imagine you are in fear for your life with explosions overhead in an active war zone. People will stay together.

Also, Putin has a history of targeting civilians so none of these bombings should come as a surprise. Expect more as he gets more desperate.