Sales of accounts and invites to invite-only sites - page 3.

shep

newbie

Activity: 42

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Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 11:07:46 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 11:06:48 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 11:01:29 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:56:48 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:55:58 PM

That's true, but it's still breaking a form of law, which incurs a penalty. And I would say that makes it the kind of thing we shouldn't allow on the forum in the interest of not only helping promote a positive image for BitCoin as a currency, but also to just generally help people avoid legal issues.

Not breaking a law, it's breaking an agreement.

Whether a law or legal agreement, my point still stands.

Then no one would ever talk here, that isn't a very good point. There are a lot of companies here, so you're proposing to ban them all?

Why would we ban those companies? I thought this whole discussion rooted from the idea of stopping the sales of account information?

That is the topic of this thread. vampire is trolling and going wildly off-topic.

21after2

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 16

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 11:06:48 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 11:01:29 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:56:48 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:55:58 PM

That's true, but it's still breaking a form of law, which incurs a penalty. And I would say that makes it the kind of thing we shouldn't allow on the forum in the interest of not only helping promote a positive image for BitCoin as a currency, but also to just generally help people avoid legal issues.

Not breaking a law, it's breaking an agreement.

Whether a law or legal agreement, my point still stands.

Then no one would ever talk here, that isn't a very good point. There are a lot of companies here, so you're proposing to ban them all?

Why would we ban those companies? I thought this whole discussion rooted from the idea of stopping the sales of account information?

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 11:01:29 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:56:48 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:55:58 PM

That's true, but it's still breaking a form of law, which incurs a penalty. And I would say that makes it the kind of thing we shouldn't allow on the forum in the interest of not only helping promote a positive image for BitCoin as a currency, but also to just generally help people avoid legal issues.

Not breaking a law, it's breaking an agreement.

Whether a law or legal agreement, my point still stands.

Then no one would ever talk here, that isn't a very good point. There are a lot of companies here, so you're proposing to ban them all?

shep

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 11:03:19 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 11:00:55 PM

a) Person A --> granted provisional access to the system -> legal
b) Person A sells the access to the system to person B -> illegal, misuse of access by sale of credentials or access codes. Can fall under access fraud. Also illegal if "making available of" (distributing) credentials without authorization of site owner per ToS (again provisional access requires that rules be followed)
c) Person B accesses the system -> illegal, computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service.

I see it differently, since you're mixing in ToS. And that's contract law.

Again provisional access requires that rules be followed hence why you don't see CIA analysts, investment bankers, or employees selling their access credentials. If you do you face criminal and civil liability. The law of most nations respects this and is codified as statutes under judicial law. You can ignore it, that's fine by me, it doesn't mean you won't face criminal and civil penalties.

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 11:00:55 PM

a) Person A --> granted provisional access to the system -> legal
b) Person A sells the access to the system to person B -> illegal, misuse of access by sale of credentials or access codes. Can fall under access fraud. Also illegal if "making available of" (distributing) credentials without authorization of site owner per ToS (again provisional access requires that rules be followed)
c) Person B accesses the system -> illegal, computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service.

I see it differently, since you're mixing in ToS. And that's contract law.

21after2

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 16

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:56:48 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:55:58 PM

That's true, but it's still breaking a form of law, which incurs a penalty. And I would say that makes it the kind of thing we shouldn't allow on the forum in the interest of not only helping promote a positive image for BitCoin as a currency, but also to just generally help people avoid legal issues.

Not breaking a law, it's breaking an agreement.

Whether a law or legal agreement, my point still stands.

shep

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:52:41 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:45:21 PM

The proof of your trolling is that the thread topic pertains to a forum policy advocated by admin and staff that pertains to unauthorized and/or secondary sales of access codes ("invites") and account credentials. You continue to target your focus away from that topic. You can focus specifically on Torrent Trackers or NZB indexers, it makes no difference when any website with a login mechanism is included in this discussion. It does not matter if it is amazon.com, newegg.com, ebay.com, stocktrade.com, fbi.gov (hopefully you wouldn't be stupid enough to buy or sell credentials for this), or any other website. The argument is the same.

Additionally if you choose to focus on NZB indexers and torrents sites and if you want to claim that they are illegal, that only supports an argument that their sales should not be allowed on this forum as it could harm the reputation of the currency and the forum.

We arguing if selling is illegal or not. Don't care about ToS (it's a contract law issue).

a) Person A has a legal access to the system.
b) Person A sells the access to the system to the person B
c) Person B access the system

Which of the steps is illegal, shep? If we take all the posts you made, that would be step C right?

a) Person A --> granted provisional access to the system -> legal
b) Person A sells the access to the system to person B -> illegal, misuse of access by sale of credentials or access codes. Can fall under access fraud. Also illegal if "making available of" (distributing) credentials without authorization of site owner per ToS (again provisional access requires that rules be followed hence why you don't see CIA analysts, investment bankers, or employees selling their access credentials. If you do you face criminal and civil liability)
c) Person B accesses the system -> illegal, computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service.

MysteryMiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1049

Death to enemies!

Stop being such moralfags! The seller must add that he is selling accounts he purchased or his own credit card numbers. It is perfectly legal to sell something you have purchased, right? The admin have no way to check is it true or not. If party wan arrives just restore backups or change hosting and proceed. The Pirate Bay would not made such a big deal if they were so concerned about legal/possibly illelgal/ legal but immoral issues. The history is made by people who fight not who obey!

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:53:22 PM

vampire is either clueless, trolling, or financially vested in this topic. Either way, he's not responding in any rational manner and is frequently going off-topic. I'm ignoring his posts from now on at least until he tries to control himself.

Since now he accused me of being financially vested in this topic? I'd like know how a topic on bitcointalk can financially benefit me.

I am selling this topic: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/sales-of-accounts-and-invites-to-invite-only-sites-134779 50BTC

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:55:58 PM

That's true, but it's still breaking a form of law, which incurs a penalty. And I would say that makes it the kind of thing we shouldn't allow on the forum in the interest of not only helping promote a positive image for BitCoin as a currency, but also to just generally help people avoid legal issues.

Not breaking a law, it's breaking an agreement.

21after2

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 16

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:53:33 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:44:17 PM

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

We aren't arguing if they can sue or not. The question: is this illegal.

Well, you would be going against a legally binding contract. I think that's enough to try and dissuade people from doing it.

Because it's the contract law, not the criminal law. Vastly two different thing.

In the first you can be sued for damages, in the second you go to jail.

That's true, but it's still breaking a form of law, which incurs a penalty. And I would say that makes it the kind of thing we shouldn't allow on the forum in the interest of not only helping promote a positive image for BitCoin as a currency, but also to just generally help people avoid legal issues.

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:44:17 PM

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

We aren't arguing if they can sue or not. The question: is this illegal.

Well, you would be going against a legally binding contract. I think that's enough to try and dissuade people from doing it.

Because it's the contract law, not the criminal law. Vastly two different thing.

In the first you can be sued for damages, in the second you go to jail.

shep

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:44:17 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:36:38 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:33:15 PM

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service. It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service. Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

vampire is either clueless, trolling, or financially vested in this topic. Either way, he's not responding in any rational manner and is frequently going off-topic. I'm ignoring his posts from now on at least until he tries to control himself.

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:45:21 PM

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:34:32 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:29:19 PM

I'm not going to dignify this with a response. At this point you're just trolling this thread and are adding nothing of value to the discussion of the original topic of the thread.

You're making wild accusations right now without any proof. Also you said that NZB indexers / Torrent trackers aren't illegal. Here is a quote for you if you forgot:

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 09:12:52 PM

I am not promoting any websites. I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

I assume you know what happened to most of them?

The proof of your trolling is that the thread topic pertains to a forum policy advocated by admin and staff that pertains to unauthorized and/or secondary sales of access codes ("invites") and account credentials. You continue to target your focus away from that topic. You can focus specifically on Torrent Trackers or NZB indexers, it makes no difference when any website with a login mechanism is included in this discussion. It does not matter if it is amazon.com, newegg.com, ebay.com, stocktrade.com, fbi.gov (hopefully you wouldn't be stupid enough to buy or sell credentials for this), or any other website. The argument is the same.

Additionally if you choose to focus on NZB indexers and torrents sites and if you want to claim that they are illegal, that only supports an argument that their sales should not be allowed on this forum as it could harm the reputation of the currency and the forum.

We arguing if selling is illegal or not. Don't care about ToS (it's a contract law issue).

a) Person A has a legal access to the system.
b) Person A sells the access to the system to the person B
c) Person B access the system

Which of the steps is illegal, shep? If we take all the posts you made, that would be step C right?

21after2

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 16

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:44:17 PM

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

We aren't arguing if they can sue or not. The question: is this illegal.

Well, you would be going against a legally binding contract. I think that's enough to try and dissuade people from doing it.

shep

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:36:38 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:33:15 PM

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service. It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service. Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

You're welcome to believe this, but I can guarantee you that can be prosecuted for selling access codes or your credentials. If you're a cia analyst you can't just go ahead an sell your credentials, they're authorized on a provisional basis. Same goes for any other site using a database. It doesn't matter if you're an investment banker, an insurance agent, your local parts store clerk, or simply a low end user.

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: 21after2 on January 05, 2013, 10:44:17 PM

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

We aren't arguing if they can sue or not. The question: is this illegal.

shep

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:34:32 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:29:19 PM

I'm not going to dignify this with a response. At this point you're just trolling this thread and are adding nothing of value to the discussion of the original topic of the thread.

You're making wild accusations right now without any proof. Also you said that NZB indexers / Torrent trackers aren't illegal. Here is a quote for you if you forgot:

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 09:12:52 PM

I am not promoting any websites. I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

I assume you know what happened to most of them?

The proof of your trolling is that the thread topic pertains to a forum policy advocated by admin and staff that pertains to unauthorized and/or secondary sales of access codes ("invites") and account credentials. You continue to target your focus away from that topic. You can focus specifically on Torrent Trackers or NZB indexers, it makes no difference when any website with a login mechanism is included in this discussion. It does not matter if it is amazon.com, newegg.com, ebay.com, stocktrade.com, fbi.gov (hopefully you wouldn't be stupid enough to buy or sell credentials for this), or any other website. The argument is the same.

Additionally if you choose to focus on NZB indexers and torrents sites and if you want to claim that they are illegal, that only supports an argument that their sales should not be allowed on this forum as it could harm the reputation of the currency and the forum.

21after2

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 16

Quote from: vampire on January 05, 2013, 10:36:38 PM

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:33:15 PM

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service. It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service. Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

vampire

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: shep on January 05, 2013, 10:33:15 PM

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service. It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service. Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

Topic: Sales of accounts and invites to invite-only sites - page 3. (Read 13818 times)