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Topic: Sales of accounts and invites to invite-only sites - page 6. (Read 13804 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
All secondary sales of service accounts or invites which employ a database and bandwidth should be observed as illegal unless explicitly permitted by the site owner.  Failing to ban secondary sales of service accounts opens the site and staff to criminal and civil liability for facilitating illegal transactions. Secondary sales refers to sales in an underlying market, which is not the same as a primary market of first availability (site owner).

But they aren't illegal, contract law is a civil matter. So far what you're doing could be "illegal", i.e. a threat.

I have not threatened anyone.  I have however bought to light the criminal and civil liability that exists from ignoring transactions of illegal sales, which so far appears to be what the staff here is advocating for.



Quote
Article 2 – Illegal access

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

Could care less about ToS. It's a load of crap and won't hold in court.

You need to prove two things at the same time, that the website was hacked AND it was used for a dishonest intent. The ball lies in your court,

Here is a definition of dishonesty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishonesty


Actually prosecutions of computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service does routinely hold up in court.  Unauthorized distribution or sales of access codes do result in jail time.  I already posted proof the previous thread and you'll find that most first world nations and even third world nations contain laws covering this activity.  Invites are access codes which if shared in an unauthorized manner are considered illegal access.  It's no different then providing login credentials.  If you want to believe something else, you're free to do so, but laws in most nations state otherwise.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 16
Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:
selling invites doesn't make a difference.

My bad. Must have read through too quickly and misread it. Maybe the mods haven't noticed him yet? This is a very new ruling.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1452
Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:
selling invites doesn't make a difference.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 16
how come this guy gets to sell accounts?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-tracker-invites-fuxorscenehdptpttwafflesbitmebitmetvtlsccgft-134044
- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or, nope, account created a week ago
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope


Title says he's selling invites, which are allowed.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1452
how come this guy gets to sell accounts?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-tracker-invites-fuxorscenehdptpttwafflesbitmebitmetvtlsccgft-134044
- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or, nope, account created a week ago
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
All secondary sales of service accounts or invites which employ a database and bandwidth should be observed as illegal unless explicitly permitted by the site owner.  Failing to ban secondary sales of service accounts opens the site and staff to criminal and civil liability for facilitating illegal transactions. Secondary sales refers to sales in an underlying market, which is not the same as a primary market of first availability (site owner).

But they aren't illegal, contract law is a civil matter. So far what you're doing could be "illegal", i.e. a threat.

Quote
Article 2 – Illegal access

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

Could care less about ToS. It's a load of crap and won't hold in court.

You need to prove two things at the same time, that the website was hacked AND it was used for a dishonest intent. The ball lies in your court,

Here is a definition of dishonesty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishonesty




newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Putting legalities aside, how do you expect someone to acquire accounts in bulk unless they are hacking or automating site registrations en mass (site abuse)?
I think you just answered your own question: we would allow people to sell accounts that were registered through automation. Whether or not we ban that is a completely different debate.

I think you're missing the point.  Mass registrations aren't illegal (unless it's brute force, or DDoS), but the sales of those accounts are illegal if it's a service account where the registered user is granted provisional access.  Selling such service accounts when the user is not authorized to do so (and holds no right to property) constitutes a breach of ToS and is considered misuse of access (illegal).  Any user which gains access to the service account is doing so illegally, which is considered illegal access with theft of service.

It's not like selling your bitcoin wallet which you actually own a right to property and therefore you have the right to sell.  

You're trying to rationalize illegal sales and theft of service by only recognizing the highly illegal sales of hacked/compromised credentials while turning a blind eye to illegal sales of access codes (invites) and credentials of service accounts, which will then be used for theft of service.

If we actually start to enforce separate TOS for every product advertised here, we would be better closing off the Marketplace entirely. I'm sure most items/digital accounts/ does not allow resale of their products.

There's a difference between a good (property) and a service.  Goods can be traded per the rule of first-sale doctrine.  Services can not be resold without approval of the property owner (site owner).

All secondary sales of service accounts or invites which employ a database and bandwidth should be observed as illegal unless explicitly permitted by the site owner.  Failing to ban secondary sales of service accounts opens the site and staff to criminal and civil liability for facilitating illegal transactions. Secondary sales refers to sales in an underlying market, which is not the same as a primary market of first availability (site owner).
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
Putting legalities aside, how do you expect someone to acquire accounts in bulk unless they are hacking or automating site registrations en mass (site abuse)?
I think you just answered your own question: we would allow people to sell accounts that were registered through automation. Whether or not we ban that is a completely different debate.

I think you're missing the point.  Mass registrations aren't illegal (unless it's brute force, or DDoS), but the sales of those accounts are illegal if it's a service account where the registered user is granted provisional access.  Selling such service accounts when the user is not authorized to do so (and holds no right to property) constitutes a breach of ToS and is considered misuse of access (illegal).  Any user which gains access to the service account is doing so illegally, which is considered illegal access with theft of service.

It's not like selling your bitcoin wallet which you actually own a right to property and therefore you have the right to sell.  

You're trying to rationalize illegal sales and theft of service by only recognizing the highly illegal sales of hacked/compromised credentials while turning a blind eye to illegal sales of access codes (invites) and credentials of service accounts, which will then be used for theft of service.

If we actually start to enforce separate TOS for every product advertised here, we would be better closing off the Marketplace entirely. I'm sure most items/digital accounts/ does not allow resale of their products.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
In many countries, terms of service are not legally binding. Traders can figure out their own legal risks. The forum will not enforce terms of service.

I think we've already established which nations signed on to the treaty, as you can see that covers most of europe and other nations like the United States.  Theft of service is theft of service no matter how you rationalize it.  You're using services which are not authorized for use and therefore it is considered illegal access.

Theymos I'll ask you this, if you tried to use a hacked cable modem (stolen, compromised, or access codes that were given to you which you were not authorized to use) would you be prosecuted for theft of service?  I guarantee you the answer is yes.  The same argument and logic applies to gaining access to a site with service account credentials that were not authorized to a specific user. Unauthorized consumption of bandwidth and resources of a server is theft of service.

If you support, rationalize, and approve of these transactions, you are approving illegal sales, which go against your own marketplace rules.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
In many countries, terms of service are not legally binding. Traders can figure out their own legal risks. The forum will not enforce terms of service.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Putting legalities aside, how do you expect someone to acquire accounts in bulk unless they are hacking or automating site registrations en mass (site abuse)?
I think you just answered your own question: we would allow people to sell accounts that were registered through automation. Whether or not we ban that is a completely different debate.

I think you're missing the point.  Mass registrations aren't illegal (unless it's brute force, or DDoS), but the sales of those accounts are illegal if it's a service account where the registered user is granted provisional access.  Selling such service accounts when the user is not authorized to do so (and holds no right to property) constitutes a breach of ToS and is considered misuse of access (illegal).  Any user which gains access to the service account is doing so illegally, which is considered illegal access with theft of service.

It's not like selling your bitcoin wallet which you actually own a right to property and therefore you have the right to sell.  

You're trying to rationalize illegal sales and theft of service by only recognizing the highly illegal sales of hacked/compromised credentials while turning a blind eye to illegal sales of access codes (invites) and credentials of service accounts, which will then be used for theft of service.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1015
Putting legalities aside, how do you expect someone to acquire accounts in bulk unless they are hacking or automating site registrations en mass (site abuse)?
I think you just answered your own question: we would allow people to sell accounts that were registered through automation. Whether or not we ban that is a completely different debate.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:
- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or,
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or,
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories.
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