Topic: Sales of accounts and invites to invite-only sites - page 4. (Read 13514 times)
Yeah this.is one of those let's just.pick a subject and release the trolls and flame bait threads. This kind of shit has.been going on fot eons. why even.fuckin harp on it?
I read the treaty (which requires nations that ratified and ascended follow these terms) , clearly you didn't. Article VI requires that only qualification. By accessing a system you are connecting one computer system to another (networked activity) which is a defacto qualification. In addition, users are consuming services (resources and transferring data), which is intent to obtain computer data.
You're running around in circles trying to find a "gotcha" stipulation that can allow illegal transactions to take place on this forum. You're not serving the site or yourself by continuing to defend illegal and immoral sales.
You're running around in circles trying to find a "gotcha" stipulation that can allow illegal transactions to take place on this forum. You're not serving the site or yourself by continuing to defend illegal and immoral sales.
So when it's say "or other dishonest intent", it does imply that the first part is dishonest also? I haven't seen the dishonesty, I didn't even see the infringing of security.
As far as I understood you're supporting the pirating of the copyrighted materials.
If the sites are legal dishonesty does not need to be proven. Access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service can apply regardless if the access codes were obtained through malicious intent or through passive means. Don't believe it, look up cable theft prosecutions
Read the law (not even a law, it's a treaty)
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=185&CM=8&DF=&CL=ENG
Quote
Article 2 – Illegal access
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Article 3 – Illegal interception
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the interception without right, made by technical means, of non-public transmissions of computer data to, from or within a computer system, including electromagnetic emissions from a computer system carrying such computer data. A Party may require that the offence be committed with dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Article 3 – Illegal interception
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the interception without right, made by technical means, of non-public transmissions of computer data to, from or within a computer system, including electromagnetic emissions from a computer system carrying such computer data. A Party may require that the offence be committed with dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
I think we're done here until your prove the dishonesty.
I read the treaty (which requires nations that ratified and ascended follow these terms) , clearly you didn't. Article VI requires only one qualification be satisfied under Article II - V. By accessing a system you are connecting one computer system to another (networked activity) which is a defacto qualification. In addition, users are consuming services (resources and transferring data), which is intent to obtain computer data.
You're running around in circles trying to find a "gotcha" stipulation that can allow illegal transactions to take place on this forum. You're not serving the site or yourself by continuing to defend illegal and immoral sales.
Quote
Article 2 – Illegal access
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Quote
Article 6 – Misuse of devices
1 Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally and without right:
2 This article shall not be interpreted as imposing criminal liability where the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available or possession referred to in paragraph 1 of this article is not for the purpose of committing an offence established in accordance with Articles 2 through 5 of this Convention, such as for the authorised testing or protection of a computer system.
3 Each Party may reserve the right not to apply paragraph 1 of this article, provided that the reservation does not concern the sale, distribution or otherwise making available of the items referred to in paragraph 1 a.ii of this article.
1 Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally and without right:
Quote
a the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available of:
b the possession of an item referred to in paragraphs a.i or ii above, with intent that it be used for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in Articles 2 through 5. A Party may require by law that a number of such items be possessed before criminal liability attaches.
Quote
i a device, including a computer program, designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in accordance with Articles 2 through 5;
ii a computer password, access code, or similar data by which the whole or any part of a computer system is capable of being accessed,
with intent that it be used for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in Articles 2 through 5; and
ii a computer password, access code, or similar data by which the whole or any part of a computer system is capable of being accessed,
with intent that it be used for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in Articles 2 through 5; and
b the possession of an item referred to in paragraphs a.i or ii above, with intent that it be used for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in Articles 2 through 5. A Party may require by law that a number of such items be possessed before criminal liability attaches.
2 This article shall not be interpreted as imposing criminal liability where the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available or possession referred to in paragraph 1 of this article is not for the purpose of committing an offence established in accordance with Articles 2 through 5 of this Convention, such as for the authorised testing or protection of a computer system.
3 Each Party may reserve the right not to apply paragraph 1 of this article, provided that the reservation does not concern the sale, distribution or otherwise making available of the items referred to in paragraph 1 a.ii of this article.
I think for the good of bitcointalk this thread needs to be locked.
If the sites are legal dishonesty does not need to be proven. Access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service can apply regardless if the access codes were obtained through malicious intent or through passive means. Don't believe it, look up cable theft prosecutions
Read the law (not even a law, it's a treaty)
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=185&CM=8&DF=&CL=ENG
Quote
Article 2 – Illegal access
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Article 3 – Illegal interception
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the interception without right, made by technical means, of non-public transmissions of computer data to, from or within a computer system, including electromagnetic emissions from a computer system carrying such computer data. A Party may require that the offence be committed with dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
Article 3 – Illegal interception
Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the interception without right, made by technical means, of non-public transmissions of computer data to, from or within a computer system, including electromagnetic emissions from a computer system carrying such computer data. A Party may require that the offence be committed with dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
I think we're done here until your prove the dishonesty.
if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites
I think you missed the point about having the currency and site associated with illegal activity. It is illegal to distribute access codes or login credentials for accounts without express permission of the site owner or institution that granted them on provisional access. You can run around the issue in circles, but that doesn't make it any less illegal.
Not really. The forum is monitored and the admin and staff are aware of the issue, hence the previous thread on the sale of hacked/compromised and unauthorized sales of invites and account credentials. The admin and staff created this thread trying to set rules for secondary sales of credentials which they had already been informed are illegal. Safe harbor only applies when not monitoring and you'll still find that forums can face criminal and civil liability for not removing material on their own accord when they are aware of it existing (already informed).
if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites
I think you missed the point about having the currency and site associated with illegal activity. It is illegal to distribute access codes or login credentials for accounts without express permission of the site owner or institution that granted them on provisional access. You can run around the issue in circles, but that doesn't make it any less illegal.
if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites
I think you missed the point about not having the currency and site associated with illegal activity. It is illegal to distribute access codes or login credentials for accounts without express permission of the site owner or institution that granted them on provisional access. It doesn't matter if it's a credit card, bank account, stock trading account, amazon, newegg, ebay, torrent, nzb, defense contractor, or any other type of credential that is used for verification and authorization to provide services. You can run around the issue in circles, but that doesn't make it any less illegal.
I don't represent gingadaddy, nor am I affiliated with them. If you believe there is a legal issue with that site I suggest you send them a DMCA takedown notification. Also I think that you're ignoring your own arguments. If those sites are illegal, then why is this forum allowing transactions of access codes and credentials for those sites? If anything you're supporting my argument that sales of access codes and credentials for those sites should not be allowed on this forum.
If these websites are illegal then their contracts are illegal.
You'll still find that access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service apply regardless. Access occurred without authorization, services were used.
or
Even if these sites are legal, you still need to prove dishonesty.
In both cases bitcointalk.org shouldn't care. You're welcome to send a legal takedown notice to bitcointalk. Follow your own advice.
Even if these sites are legal, you still need to prove dishonesty.
In both cases bitcointalk.org shouldn't care. You're welcome to send a legal takedown notice to bitcointalk. Follow your own advice.
If the sites are legal dishonesty does not need to be proven. Access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service can apply regardless if the access codes were obtained through malicious intent or through passive means. Don't believe it, look up cable theft prosecutions
if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites
I don't represent gingadaddy, nor am I affiliated with them. If you believe there is a legal issue with that site I suggest you send them a DMCA takedown notification. Also I think that you're ignoring your own arguments. If those sites are illegal, then why is this forum allowing transactions of access codes and credentials for those sites? If anything you're supporting my argument that sales of access codes and credentials for those sites should not be allowed on this forum.
If these websites are illegal then their contracts are illegal.
or
Even if these sites are legal, you still need to prove dishonesty.
In both cases bitcointalk.org shouldn't care. You're welcome to send a legal takedown notice to bitcointalk. Follow your own advice.
I am not promoting any websites. I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).
Really? They aren't illegal? Wow. I checked your comments history and pulled the ToS of the website in question.
https://www.gingadaddy.com/rules.php
I have nothing to prove.I have however pointed out the distribution and or sales of credentials and access codes which have not been explicitly authorized by a site owner or institution that they belong to is in fact illegal and can be prosecuted. Sellers and facilitators can face criminal and civil liability. Again, I'm sorry if you and some others can't accept that, but that is the way that most legal systems operate. Theft of service is recognized by most first world and third world nations.
Regarding your other statement. I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are in fact not illegal depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups. The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.
If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.
Regarding your other statement. I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are in fact not illegal depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups. The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.
If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.
The burden of proof is on you. If you can't prove according to law that you had referenced here then there is nothing to talk about civilly here.
I don't represent gingadaddy, nor am I affiliated with them. If you believe there is a legal issue with that site I suggest you send them a DMCA takedown notification. Also I think that you're ignoring your own arguments. If those sites are illegal, then why is this forum allowing transactions of access codes and credentials for those sites? If anything you're supporting my argument that sales of access codes and credentials for those sites should not be allowed on this forum.
supernatural confirming he is selling unauthorized access breaking TOS
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1436889
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1436889
how come this guy gets to sell accounts?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-tracker-invites-fuxorscenehdptpttwafflesbitmebitmetvtlsccgft-134044
He proved the second point to theymos already.https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-tracker-invites-fuxorscenehdptpttwafflesbitmebitmetvtlsccgft-134044
- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or, nope, account created a week ago
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope
Shep, although I'm not that knowledgeable about the rules concerning this issue, a cursory review on sites trading invites/accounts for usenet/torrenting sites tells me that most of them are either registered at USA and/or hosted at USA. It's those usenet /torrent sites that are having problems with DMCA and the like for pirating issues, not those account/invite trading sites.
Sales of access codes or credentials are illegal. Whether or not anyone has chosen to pursue credentials on those sites is a completely different debate, but the act of sales and distribution in a secondary market is in itself illegal without authorization by a site owner or institution that granted them based on provisional access.
I am not promoting any websites. I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).
Really? They aren't illegal? Wow. I checked your comments history and pulled the ToS of the website in question.
https://www.gingadaddy.com/rules.php
I have nothing to prove.I have however pointed out the distribution and or sales of credentials and access codes which have not been explicitly authorized by a site owner or institution that they belong to is in fact illegal and can be prosecuted. Sellers and facilitators can face criminal and civil liability. Again, I'm sorry if you and some others can't accept that, but that is the way that most legal systems operate. Theft of service is recognized by most first world and third world nations.
Regarding your other statement. I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are in fact not illegal depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups. The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.
If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.
Regarding your other statement. I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are in fact not illegal depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups. The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.
If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.
The burden of proof is on you. If you can't prove according to law that you had referenced here then there is nothing to talk about civilly here.
I like how shep is against selling torrent invites legitimately acquired but doesn't touch in the issue that torrent sites are practically used for piracy which is illegal.
Also, what about my signature space? Should I be banned for selling it? I haven't got permission from any of the site moderators to sell it!!!!!!
Also, what about my signature space? Should I be banned for selling it? I haven't got permission from any of the site moderators to sell it!!!!!!
how come this guy gets to sell accounts?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-tracker-invites-fuxorscenehdptpttwafflesbitmebitmetvtlsccgft-134044
He proved the second point to theymos already.https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-tracker-invites-fuxorscenehdptpttwafflesbitmebitmetvtlsccgft-134044
- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or, nope, account created a week ago
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope
Shep, although I'm not that knowledgeable about the rules concerning this issue, a cursory review on sites trading invites/accounts for usenet/torrenting sites tells me that most of them are either registered at USA and/or hosted at USA. It's those usenet /torrent sites that are having problems with DMCA and the like for pirating issues, not those account/invite trading sites.
I have not threatened anyone. I have however bought to light the criminal and civil liability that exists from ignoring transactions of illegal sales, which so far appears to be what the staff here is advocating for.
You aren't a lawyer, so what may seems illegal to you may not to me. Like the threatening part, especially when you promote illegal websites.
I am not promoting any websites. I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).
Actually prosecutions of computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service does routinely hold up in court. Unauthorized distribution or sales of access codes do result in jail time. I already posted proof the previous thread and you'll find that most first world nations and even third world nations contain laws covering this activity. Invites are access codes which if shared in an unauthorized manner are considered illegal access. It's no different then providing login credentials. If you want to believe something else, you're free to do so, but laws in most nations state otherwise.
I already said once:
Prove me dishonesty. So far you have failed to do so.
Prove me that the website was hacked.
Now the additional factor. All these nzbs websites are illegal in nature. ToS of an illegal website is worthless.
The door is that way ===================>
I have nothing to prove.I have however pointed out the distribution and or sales of credentials and access codes which have not been explicitly authorized by a site owner or institution that they belong to is in fact illegal and can be prosecuted. Sellers and facilitators can face criminal and civil liability. Again, I'm sorry if you and some others can't accept that, but that is the way that most legal systems operate. Theft of service is recognized by most first world and third world nations.
Regarding your other statement. I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are legal in many nations depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups. The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.
If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.
Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:
selling invites doesn't make a difference.It seems like the admin here is finding new and creative ways to rationalize existing behavior and transactions without changing much of anything other than banning the low hanging fruit that dare to be bold enough to admit to their procurement methods and acquisitions.
Nothing has really changed. As long as the seller admits nothing publicly it's business as usual and the rules that Theymos has drafted clearly reflect that.
It seems like you joined the forum just to start shit about this...... What makes your words so valuable? Are you a lawyer? Law enforcement?
Nope I'm not law enforcement. However, I do object to illegal sales and distribution of login credentials and access codes, no matter what website or forum they are used for. Most website or database admin you would ask would tell you the same thing. I'm sorry if you disagree with that opinion. Don't kill the messenger because you can't agree with the message.
It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.
It bothers me to see you supporting obvious scammers. Why is it that you do that? Are you preparing for/operating a scam yourself? And if so why? Did your mother not teach you right from wrong? Is that what you wanted to be as a child, a scammer?
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