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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 349. (Read 845571 times)

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
February 24, 2015, 01:08:10 AM
Of course, you cannot measure the probability of something existing somewhere in the universe. Unless you can do that, the whole proof is meaningless.

It's about time that someone else pointed out that empiricism cannot possibly comment one way or another about God.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
February 24, 2015, 01:06:28 AM
Of course, you cannot measure the probability of something existing somewhere in the universe. Unless you can do that, the whole proof is meaningless.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 24, 2015, 12:24:39 AM

The Bible is the basic explanation of things. Nobody needs anything else.

Smiley

Just because your point of view involves a personal savior does not mean it is the right one. Like I mentioned, the entire account of Jesus and many cosmic mysteries simply make more sense in my opinion when one reads other important sources. I want to be well - read and open in my assessment of  Bible, so I read Hatonn... If you are more closed off as a result of his scribed messages, maybe you should ask yourself why... and why do you not love me as you love thyself... in a Christian truth?  Why is it that you judge? It is evil to judge when you know not.

You do not know that anyone needs a savior; it is impossible for soMeone to be lifted away into the clouds just because they have believed a certain concept.

When you look at the complexity in nature, according to our understanding, nature and life are impossible to exist, according to any way that we can guess that they might have been brought into existence. Since they exist, however, why is it such a far fetch to believe that Someone can't lift Himself, or be lifted into the clouds like Jesus did/was?

The fact that you think that "it is impossible for soMeone to be lifted away into the clouds ..." means that you are not very well read, yet, or else that you are ignoring the possibilities shown by the things that you have read.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 24, 2015, 12:01:36 AM
We don't have the same sources for our beliefs and opinions.
Oh I get it. You have been reading the Phoenix Journals and they are driving you crazy.

Oh I get it, I am different in my belief so I must be crazy and my God is really the devil. Well that is exactly what you have said to me in this thread and it does not sound like civilized Christian behavior to me!

It is exactly good Christian behavior. Why? Because you adamantly refuse to accept the fact that you need a savior, and that the Savior is Jesus, the Christ of the Bible. Since you don't accept Him, you are going to Hell.

As a person who would like to have you as a Christian brother, I need to warn you firmly about the dangerous position you have placed yourself in. I can't do this with some wishy-washy, emotionally mish-mashy language. I need to warn you straight out, so that you see the danger, and change.

I have tried all the ways I know so far. So, if you don't change, it is on your own head, and it won't matter because you will be gone, anyway.


Well I for one will not accept an argument from authority; that is really all you have when your book does not even allow you to inquire into all things.

The Bible is the basic explanation of things. Nobody needs anything else.

Smiley

Just because your point of view involves a personal savior does not mean it is the right one. Like I mentioned, the entire account of Jesus and many cosmic mysteries simply make more sense in my opinion when one reads other important sources. I want to be well - read and open in my assessment of  Bible, so I read Hatonn... If you are more closed off as a result of his scribed messages, maybe you should ask yourself why... and why do you not love me as you love thyself... in a Christian truth?  Why is it that you judge? It is evil to judge when you know not.

You do not know that anyone needs a savior; it is impossible for soMeone to be lifted away into the clouds just because they have believed a certain concept.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 11:51:21 PM
First, you have to get a really solid definition of what any individual person means by 'god'.

You might want to do this if you are speaking about some very specific thing.

In the general scheme of things, all the machines that we have come from our observation and use of the machines in nature - the universe. So far, our machines are way behind the machines in nature in complexity and capability. Machines have makers. Whomever made the machines of the universe is way beyond us. Whomever or Whatever he or it is, he/it is way beyond us in intelligence and capability. This matches even the most general definitions of god/God.

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 249
Merit: 250
February 23, 2015, 11:42:48 PM
First, you have to get a really solid definition of what any individual person means by 'god'.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 10:32:14 PM
The essence of god is mysterious.  Science itself could be argued as proof of god or so could this staple lodged in my finger (don't ask).  It doesn't matter and it matter completely.  But really it's mind over matter.  If you don't mind, it don't matter.  And if it matters, be mindful.  

But really, even when science does prove any aspect of god there is still more to prove.  The "god" particle is a farce because more particles will be discovered.  Humans just always seek some sense of closure when the reality is infinite and unclosable.

So my best answer would be yes and no and maybe, perhaps, definitely and wait until tomorrow.

LOL !  Hope your finger is okay.

We still don't know for a fact that there isn't just one particle in the whole universe, and that's all there is. We don't know if it is this particle zooming throughout the dimensions at super-high speeds and in various ways, to actually form what looks and feels like all the rest of the particles and energies that exist in the universe. Someday we may know. But we don't know one way or the other for sure, yet.

Smiley

Well I agree with your last sentence anyways!  We're only as good as our measuring equipment.  When they measure the Higgs Boson so called "god particle" it is naive to think that they have found the ultimate particle.  They will find more and more.

I don't think that Hawking dubbed the Higgs Boson the "god particle" because he thought it had anything to do with some kind of god or god attribute.

Yes. We will find more. And since we are only scratching the surface in examining the dimensions, we may find all kinds of things that are neither particle or wave.

Smiley

EDIT: One of my big questions is: "Do we know for a fact that we are not creating some of these particles rather than simply finding them?"

Oh man... that would really screw things up if we're creating particles in a bubble without any understanding of what could happen with those particles.  We could be making our very own Big Bang.

Yes. There are a lot of energies bouncing around in the cyclotrons and colliders. How can we be sure that we are not creating particles rather than simply attracting them in or digging them out?

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 1031
February 23, 2015, 10:27:10 PM
The essence of god is mysterious.  Science itself could be argued as proof of god or so could this staple lodged in my finger (don't ask).  It doesn't matter and it matter completely.  But really it's mind over matter.  If you don't mind, it don't matter.  And if it matters, be mindful.  

But really, even when science does prove any aspect of god there is still more to prove.  The "god" particle is a farce because more particles will be discovered.  Humans just always seek some sense of closure when the reality is infinite and unclosable.

So my best answer would be yes and no and maybe, perhaps, definitely and wait until tomorrow.

LOL !  Hope your finger is okay.

We still don't know for a fact that there isn't just one particle in the whole universe, and that's all there is. We don't know if it is this particle zooming throughout the dimensions at super-high speeds and in various ways, to actually form what looks and feels like all the rest of the particles and energies that exist in the universe. Someday we may know. But we don't know one way or the other for sure, yet.

Smiley

Well I agree with your last sentence anyways!  We're only as good as our measuring equipment.  When they measure the Higgs Boson so called "god particle" it is naive to think that they have found the ultimate particle.  They will find more and more.

I don't think that Hawking dubbed the Higgs Boson the "god particle" because he thought it had anything to do with some kind of god or god attribute.

Yes. We will find more. And since we are only scratching the surface in examining the dimensions, we may find all kinds of things that are neither particle or wave.

Smiley

EDIT: One of my big questions is: "Do we know for a fact that we are not creating some of these particles rather than simply finding them?"

Oh man... that would really screw things up if we're creating particles in a bubble without any understanding of what could happen with those particles.  We could be making our very own Big Bang.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 10:26:05 PM
We don't have the same sources for our beliefs and opinions.
Oh I get it. You have been reading the Phoenix Journals and they are driving you crazy.

Oh I get it, I am different in my belief so I must be crazy and my God is really the devil. Well that is exactly what you have said to me in this thread and it does not sound like civilized Christian behavior to me!

It is exactly good Christian behavior. Why? Because you adamantly refuse to accept the fact that you need a savior, and that the Savior is Jesus, the Christ of the Bible. Since you don't accept Him, you are going to Hell.

As a person who would like to have you as a Christian brother, I need to warn you firmly about the dangerous position you have placed yourself in. I can't do this with some wishy-washy, emotionally mish-mashy language. I need to warn you straight out, so that you see the danger, and change.

I have tried all the ways I know so far. So, if you don't change, it is on your own head, and it won't matter because you will be gone, anyway.


Well I for one will not accept an argument from authority; that is really all you have when your book does not even allow you to inquire into all things.

The Bible is the basic explanation of things. Nobody needs anything else.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 23, 2015, 10:11:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

So a messenger Paul was specially called to Promote the "right story" about Jesus/Emmanuel.
How convenient that this story forbids you to investigate any other perspective.

Actually modern scholarship on Paul's writings indicates that his doctrine is not always in harmony with the Gospels.


This is the exact reason for the Council of Nicea which weeded out a whole bunch of worse writings.

You can take anything and twist it so that it doesn't harmonize with something else. Yet, both the Gospels and the Letters of Paul are correct, in the context, and with the things that they are trying to express, even though they may not seem to harmonize to the thinking of some people.

This is the exact reason that there is no room for something like the Phoenix Chronicles or whatever you call them. There is even less harmony among them, and far less harmony when you try to harmonize them with the Bible. One doesn't need to read them to realize this. One only need realize that, generally speaking, it is this way with all complicated, complex, convoluted writings.

Smiley

Well I for one will not accept an argument from authority; that is really all you have when your book does not even allow you to inquire into all things.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 23, 2015, 10:08:06 PM
We don't have the same sources for our beliefs and opinions.
Oh I get it. You have been reading the Phoenix Journals and they are driving you crazy.

Oh I get it, I am different in my belief so I must be crazy and my God is really the devil. Well that is exactly what you have said to me in this thread and it does not sound like civilized Christian behavior to me!
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 10:04:10 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

So a messenger Paul was specially called to Promote the "right story" about Jesus/Emmanuel.
How convenient that this story forbids you to investigate any other perspective.

Actually modern scholarship on Paul's writings indicates that his doctrine is not always in harmony with the Gospels.


This is the exact reason for the Council of Nicea which weeded out a whole bunch of worse writings.

You can take anything and twist it so that it doesn't harmonize with something else. Yet, both the Gospels and the Letters of Paul are correct, in the context, and with the things that they are trying to express, even though they may not seem to harmonize to the thinking of some people.

This is the exact reason that there is no room for something like the Phoenix Chronicles or whatever you call them. There is even less harmony among them, and far less harmony when you try to harmonize them with the Bible. One doesn't need to read them to realize this. One only need realize that, generally speaking, it is this way with all complicated, complex, convoluted writings.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 23, 2015, 09:23:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

So a messenger Paul was specially called to Promote the "right story" about Jesus/Emmanuel.
How convenient that this story forbids you to investigate any other perspective.

Actually modern scholarship on Paul's writings indicates that his doctrine is not always in harmony with the Gospels.



legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 08:40:40 PM
Paul admits to being a Pharisee in his own writings.
Christ said that Pharisees are evil Matt. 23.

This indicates to anyone of sound mind that Christ does not endorse Saul.

Finally. Finally you admit that the Christ of the Bible is "Christ."

Jesus was talking about the leaders of the Pharisees, a position Paul never made it to.

Even if Paul did make it to a leadership position, Luke explains in the Acts of the Apostles how Paul was specially called by Jesus, on the road to Damascus, to do work for God the right way.

Is that all you have been yammering about all this time with Saul and the Pharisees?

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Pre-sale - March 18
February 23, 2015, 08:30:49 PM
When people are about to die, thats when  they hope or feel God near.  Even these so called Atheist
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 23, 2015, 07:27:34 PM
Paul admits to being a Pharisee in his own writings.
Christ said that Pharisees are evil Matt. 23.

This indicates to anyone of sound mind that Christ does not endorse Saul.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 23, 2015, 07:18:08 PM
Jesus said that Pharisees are evil.
Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself and love God.
You do not care to understand history from my perspective because you have faith in authorities, not own discernment.

What Hatonn and Sananda talk about is obviously by far a more logical and comprehensive view.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 02:38:44 PM
Blakjag, here is one of the major fallacies in your thinking, and in that of the Phoenix Journals. This thinking is that people are God in the way that they give themselves eternal life, that they don't need a savior from death.

The evidence all around us shows that all people die.

Even if somebody steps forward who is 200-years-old, he does not have the youthfulness of a 20-year-old. Even if he has some youthfulness, he is still old-looking in some ways. He is dying, and has only found ways to extend his life temporarily.

If people had the ability to raise themselves from the dead, or if they had the ability to remain alive, some of them would have done it by now. The evidence is that nobody is doing it.

Few people like the idea of dying. If they could keep themselves alive, they would. If they could raise themselves from the dead, they would. They aren't doing it because they can't.

Even if there is a promise of some kind, that people will be able to raise themselves from the dead in the future, sometime, where is the strength in that promise? There isn't any strength other than a bunch of talk.

Jesus of the Bible did the actual raising from the dead at least twice that we know about. The evidence is in the writings of the Gospels, records of eye witness accounts of the things that Jesus did.

In addition, Jesus did all kinds of other miracles besides raising people from the dead, miracles that we don't see much of these days, miracles that when done these days only lasts if they are done in the Name of the Jesus of the Bible.

There is strength in accepting that Jesus is the Savior we need. The strength is in the promise of resurrection as listed in the New Testament and the Old.

Since the evidence all around us is that we can't save ourselves, we need a Savior. Jesus of the Bible is that Savior.

Phoenix Journals = talk, no evidence.
Bible = talk, evidence in the miracles that Jesus did.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 23, 2015, 01:25:31 PM
If you really are talking about Paul who wrote much of the New Testament, then all you need do is compare what he wrote against what Jesus said in the Gospels of the New Testament to see that there is much agreement between the two. Parts that don't seem to agree, have their agreement in the understanding of the times and who the both of them were speaking/writing to.

Paul continually says that he supports Jesus, is in favor of Jesus, is trying to do the work that Jesus did, is trying to do the work Jesus told him to do, and is trying to extend God's kingdom the same as Jesus was.


You know that I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I understand that you don't think the Bible is the Word of God, or at least not all of it. So, why do you keep on questioning me about things regarding Paul and Jesus? We don't have the same sources for our beliefs and opinions. Do you simply like to play with words? Do you like to find people to argue with?

Oh I get it. You have been reading the Phoenix Journals and they are driving you crazy.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
February 23, 2015, 10:21:39 AM
If you care not for authentic faith then by all means keep following Pharisee Saul; for me, the fact that he was always a Pharisee and never saw/heard Christ indicates that he is not the right speaker for me. I would Prefer to hear the gospel and good news from one who was very close to Christ while He was alive (see Phoenix Journal #2).

So that is why I ask you for the criteria by which you discern that Saul has the authentic teaching; it is a fact that he never "followed" Christ.
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