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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 349. (Read 845809 times)

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 04:28:35 PM
You keep using the word "religion", whose existence you have refused. I think "refuse" may be a more acceptable word than "deny", certainly less harsh, but the underlying logic still stands.

There you go, stating something that is completely contrary to the evidence above. Why do you think that I have refused the existence of religion? Wasn't it I who brought to light the fact that Atheism is a religion? Wasn't it I who showed how it is a religion by comparing it to the dictionary definition of the word "religion?" What are you saying about yourself when you can't even follow the written pattern?

Smiley
Yes. and with that assertion you have eroded your own faith. If disbeluef is a belief, and atheism is a religion, then the concepts of belief, faith and religion are meaningless. What use is a concept or an idea if you can't define or even imagine its negation?

And the implied assumtion, was the one of monotheism, at length discussed above. A polytheist could take your assumption and still remain religious, as a monotheist which you are, you can't.

Quite the contrary. My faith is stronger than ever, because I have been pushed into examining the evidences for my faith ever more strongly because of things written in this forum.

Set aside the ideas of belief and faith for a moment. Rather, look at only the evidences for the various religions including Atheism. The monotheistic view is strongest. The reason that it is strongest is, the Bible cannot exist according to probability, yet it does exist, in great numbers, in multitudes of translations. You can determining the odds of its existence by examining the way it came into existence along with the things that make it up, along with the traditions of the Hebrew people that it is truth. None of any of the other religions - not even atheism - can match the religion of the Bible in this way.

Whatever assumption(s) you are talking about above, let's continue making them. Why would I suggest this? Because the more there is an assumption, the more there has to be faith to believe in it. And the only way God accepts us is through faith. Let's hope any Atheists will suddenly make the jump to faith in God - for Whom there is way more evidence than no God - taking the strength of their faith with them.

Smiley
member
Activity: 169
Merit: 10
ExToke - Fee Free Trading
February 16, 2015, 04:04:33 PM
You keep using the word "religion", whose existence you have refused. I think "refuse" may be a more acceptable word than "deny", certainly less harsh, but the underlying logic still stands.

There you go, stating something that is completely contrary to the evidence above. Why do you think that I have refused the existence of religion? Wasn't it I who brought to light the fact that Atheism is a religion? Wasn't it I who showed how it is a religion by comparing it to the dictionary definition of the word "religion?" What are you saying about yourself when you can't even follow the written pattern?

Smiley
Yes. and with that assertion you have eroded your own faith. If disbeluef is a belief, and atheism is a religion, then the concepts of belief, faith and religion are meaningless. What use is a concept or an idea if you can't define or even imagine its negation?

And the implied assumtion, was the one of monotheism, at length discussed above. A polytheist could take your assumption and still remain religious, as a monotheist which you are, you can't.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
You keep using the word "religion", whose existence you have refused. I think "refuse" may be a more acceptable word than "deny", certainly less harsh, but the underlying logic still stands.

There you go, stating something that is completely contrary to the evidence above. Why do you think that I have refused the existence of religion? Wasn't it I who brought to light the fact that Atheism is a religion? Wasn't it I who showed how it is a religion by comparing it to the dictionary definition of the word "religion?" What are you saying about yourself when you can't even follow the written pattern?

Smiley
member
Activity: 169
Merit: 10
ExToke - Fee Free Trading
February 16, 2015, 03:45:41 PM
You keep using the word "religion", whose existence you have refused. I think "refuse" may be a more acceptable word than "deny", certainly less harsh, but the underlying logic still stands.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:38:34 PM
If, in your mind, you can not grasp the absence of belief and religion: Can you then define the existence of both? If atheism can not exist, then it follows god can not exist.

Atheism is a religion because nobody knows that it is true, yet many people believe in it.

Smiley
That was indeed your assertion. But are you ready to follow it to its conclusion? That is, denying your own faith and only accept it as a silly tautology. You need only one assumption, historically important, but I don't need to spell it out here, Or do I?

What does denial of anything have to do with it?

There are a certain amount of evidences that Atheism is the true religion.

There are countless more evidences that God is the true religion.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:37:03 PM
If, in your mind, you can not grasp the absence of belief and religion: Can you then define the existence of both? If atheism can not exist, then it follows god can not exist.

Atheism is a religion because nobody knows that it is true, yet many people believe in it.

Smiley

You just claimed Atheism is a lie, now your claiming nobody knows if it's true or not.

My claim of Atheism as a lie was simply a sneering agreement with the previous post to it.

Obviously Atheism is a true religion.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
February 16, 2015, 03:33:28 PM
If, in your mind, you can not grasp the absence of belief and religion: Can you then define the existence of both? If atheism can not exist, then it follows god can not exist.

Atheism is a religion because nobody knows that it is true, yet many people believe in it.

Smiley

You just claimed Atheism is a lie, now your claiming nobody knows if it's true or not.
member
Activity: 169
Merit: 10
ExToke - Fee Free Trading
February 16, 2015, 03:32:36 PM
If, in your mind, you can not grasp the absence of belief and religion: Can you then define the existence of both? If atheism can not exist, then it follows god can not exist.

Atheism is a religion because nobody knows that it is true, yet many people believe in it.

Smiley
That was indeed your assertion. But are you ready to follow it to its conclusion? That is, denying your own faith and only accept it as a silly tautology. You need only one assumption, historically important, but I don't need to spell it out here, Or do I?
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:30:16 PM
Apparently, it seems that 190 pages of this thread is not enough to solve your dispute about existence of god. I've got to say that you would not find a common ground even after 1000 pages... It amuses me that people are willing to put that effort to discuss that matter over and over again.

You are completely mistaken. We have common ground, even though we are stubborn enough not to admit it. Our common ground is two-fold. It is: 1) we don't have any common ground; 2) we are stubborn enough not to admit it (most of the time).

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1001
February 16, 2015, 03:27:14 PM
Apparently, it seems that 190 pages of this thread is not enough to solve your dispute about existence of god. I've got to say that you would not find a common ground even after 1000 pages... It amuses me that people are willing to put that effort to discuss that matter over and over again.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:21:28 PM
If, in your mind, you can not grasp the absence of belief and religion: Can you then define the existence of both? If atheism can not exist, then it follows god can not exist.

Atheism is a religion because nobody knows that it is true, yet many people believe in it.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:19:45 PM
It is self evident that nobody knows for a fact about anything even a micro-second into the future. If they did, they would know about everything. Accidents wouldn't happen.

Everybody trusts, which is a form of belief, that things will work out somewhat like they have in the previous micro-second. But they don't really know. Consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nobody knows anything. Everything operates by belief, because there are too many variables as to what could happen.

Smiley
member
Activity: 169
Merit: 10
ExToke - Fee Free Trading
February 16, 2015, 03:16:40 PM
If, in your mind, you can not grasp the absence of belief and religion: Can you then define the existence of both? If atheism can not exist, then it follows god can not exist.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:15:26 PM
Just to be clear - Atheism doesn't state 'no god exists' but that an atheist has no belief that a God exists.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites: painted priests performing religions deep into the night.

Looks like Atheism is a religion according to #3, sometimes #5, and #6.

Smiley

No, look at it again, " the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs". Atheism is the lack of belief, so it is not a religion.

There isn't such a thing as lack of belief in some form, at least not among people. People always believe in something. That is, they hold something as true even though they do not know it is true.

This makes Atheism to be what it really is, a lie, as well as a belief.

Smiley


That's not true. No idea where you got, "There isn't such a thing as lack of belief in some form, at least not among people." from.

In other words, if you believe that you don't believe, you are lying to yourself.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
February 16, 2015, 03:12:42 PM
Just to be clear - Atheism doesn't state 'no god exists' but that an atheist has no belief that a God exists.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites: painted priests performing religions deep into the night.

Looks like Atheism is a religion according to #3, sometimes #5, and #6.

Smiley

No, look at it again, " the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs". Atheism is the lack of belief, so it is not a religion.

There isn't such a thing as lack of belief in some form, at least not among people. People always believe in something. That is, they hold something as true even though they do not know it is true.

This makes Atheism to be what it really is, a lie, as well as a belief.

Smiley


That's not true. No idea where you got, "There isn't such a thing as lack of belief in some form, at least not among people." from.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 16, 2015, 03:10:15 PM
Just to be clear - Atheism doesn't state 'no god exists' but that an atheist has no belief that a God exists.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites: painted priests performing religions deep into the night.

Looks like Atheism is a religion according to #3, sometimes #5, and #6.

Smiley

No, look at it again, " the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs". Atheism is the lack of belief, so it is not a religion.

There isn't such a thing as lack of belief in some form, at least not among people. People always believe in something. That is, they hold something as true even though they do not know it is true.

This makes Atheism to be what it really is, a lie, as well as a belief.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
February 16, 2015, 03:02:01 PM
Just to be clear - Atheism doesn't state 'no god exists' but that an atheist has no belief that a God exists.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites: painted priests performing religions deep into the night.

Looks like Atheism is a religion according to #3, sometimes #5, and #6.

Smiley

No, look at it again, " the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs". Atheism is the lack of belief, so it is not a religion.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 15, 2015, 11:12:46 PM
Just to be clear - Atheism doesn't state 'no god exists' but that an atheist has no belief that a God exists.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t:
Quote
religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites: painted priests performing religions deep into the night.

Looks like Atheism is a religion according to #3, sometimes #5, and #6.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1123
February 15, 2015, 10:42:45 PM
Just to be clear - Atheism doesn't state 'no god exists' but that an atheist has no belief that a God exists.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Knowledge could but approximate existence.
February 15, 2015, 10:24:19 PM
It is impossible to prove something doesn't exist, if your definition of that thing keeps shifting to exclude any evidence. This is known as Russel's teapot and a quick google will find some explanation.
(Red colorization mine.)


Quote from: Bradley Dowden. “Fallacies.” _Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy_. 16 Feb. 235. link=http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#NoTrueScotsman
No True Scotsman

This error is a kind of ad hoc rescue of one's generalization in which the reasoner re-characterizes the situation solely in order to escape refutation of the generalization.

Example:
Code:
Smith: All Scotsmen are loyal and brave.

Jones: But McDougal over there is a Scotsman, and he was arrested by his commanding officer for running from the enemy.

Smith: Well, if that's right, it just shows that McDougal wasn't a TRUE Scotsman.
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