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Topic: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? - page 14. (Read 30782 times)

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
I'm typing from my mobile and I've no will or need to go with you on a point-by-point discussion.
To keep it simple, you look like if I've 2 dimes in my pocket, one is bright and shining, the other is old and wared of. You're this shining piece who got convinced to worth more than the old coin.
And yes, about you I think you're childish... Or your father just skip all needed spanks.

You have completely misrepresented my argument (straw manned bro) I said the coin worth more would have more value. Your saying I said two coins of equal value have the same value, completely different!

Answer this.

Are the contributions to society of all people equal? Yes or No?

If no, then to a society, clearly some people are worth more than others to the society because they contribute more.

Which means I'm right and you are wrong.

I bet you daddy spanked you as a child which would actually explain sooooo much! It would explain why you believe that there must be a daddy figure to spank bad people in society at large because that is what you have been conditioned to understand.

Oh and you have not will to go on a point by point discussion because all you've done so far is straw man and present a irrational and psychopathic ideology.

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
I'm typing from my mobile and I've no will or need to go with you on a point-by-point discussion.
To keep it simple, you look like if I've 2 dimes in my pocket, one is bright and shining, the other is old and wared of. You're this shining piece who got convinced to worth more than the old coin.
And yes, about you I think you're childish... Or your father just skip all needed spanks.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Quote
to be some control; toxic waste disposals, protected species, etc.
I know what you mean but the problem of such way of thinking is that the "etc." part always expand and never shrink, except with a revolution.
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.


That introduces the concept of "tragedy of the commons".  If there were no regulations on the fish stock then laissez faire economics  will lead to overfishing.  Then nobody can eat tuna sushi anymore

You don't solve a tragedy of the commons by creating a government which is an even larger tragedy of the commons.

Fish stocks survived for years without quotas. Government gets involved, fishing stocks are raped to death. (see Canadian fish stocks).
It is not actually quotas, it is limits to amounts of fish that can be fished that prevents them from being extinct. The issue is not the companies that fish for profit it is the fish themselves that could cease to exist because of overfishing.

my mistake. when I used the term quoto I used it to represent as you have described, an artificial upper limit imposed by the government on the amount of fish that may be fished. A licence to fish in government waters.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1001
https://keybase.io/masterp FREE Escrow Service
Quote
to be some control; toxic waste disposals, protected species, etc.
I know what you mean but the problem of such way of thinking is that the "etc." part always expand and never shrink, except with a revolution.
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.


That introduces the concept of "tragedy of the commons".  If there were no regulations on the fish stock then laissez faire economics  will lead to overfishing.  Then nobody can eat tuna sushi anymore

You don't solve a tragedy of the commons by creating a government which is an even larger tragedy of the commons.

Fish stocks survived for years without quotas. Government gets involved, fishing stocks are raped to death. (see Canadian fish stocks).
It is not actually quotas, it is limits to amounts of fish that can be fished that prevents them from being extinct. The issue is not the companies that fish for profit it is the fish themselves that could cease to exist because of overfishing.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
People will NEVER comply with all rules by own will. They will always try to get the most advantage of any situation and this eventually leads to conflicts, to solve them a 3rd party has to force one of them to comply to a set of rules, otherwise the stronger one will simply get it (law of the jungle). Which means also this 3rd party has to be stronger than both.

Sorry for the shower of reality, you aren't yet able to withstand it. But before think "you've the perfect system", think about its' potential leaks and flaws.

About your racist comments and self-indulgence... I'll let it pass this time. They are just plain ridiculous.

You see the people of the world as little children incapable of reasoning so they need a daddy figure to spank them when they are naughty don't you?

Speaks volumes about your mental and emotion faculties that you desire a world where you are reduced in freedoms to the level of a little child.

Oh and you jumped over my points because you have no rebuttal.

Because if you did you would have to say that great people are worth no more to society than beggars, which is clearly insane.

Oh and my self indulgence? I guess it must seem an indulgence if you see yourself and everyone as children because what can a child accomplish....

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
Those who break rules and get away with it get to the top. Those who follow the rules and play by the book rarely ever get to top.

Then you've the next rule on those dynamics: once at the top the new comers will try their best to wipe the concurrence and prevent others to arrive there by the same path.
Eventually someone will find a way around and the cycle repeats itself.
full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
People will NEVER comply with all rules by own will. They will always try to get the most advantage of any situation and this eventually leads to conflicts, to solve them a 3rd party has to force one of them to comply to a set of rules, otherwise the stronger one will simply get it (law of the jungle). Which means also this 3rd party has to be stronger than both.

Sorry for the shower of reality, you aren't yet able to withstand it. But before think "you've the perfect system", think about its' potential leaks and flaws.

About your racist comments and self-indulgence... I'll let it pass this time. They are just plain ridiculous.

And people always find a way around rules and regulation. They will test how far they can do it without authority knocking at your door.

Those who break rules and get away with it get to the top. Those who follow the rules and play by the book rarely ever get to top.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
People will NEVER comply with all rules by own will. They will always try to get the most advantage of any situation and this eventually leads to conflicts, to solve them a 3rd party has to force one of them to comply to a set of rules, otherwise the stronger one will simply get it (law of the jungle). Which means also this 3rd party has to be stronger than both.

Sorry for the shower of reality, you aren't yet able to withstand it. But before think "you've the perfect system", think about its' potential leaks and flaws.

About your racist comments and self-indulgence... I'll let it pass this time. They are just plain ridiculous.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
That is a faction weighting of life and presumes a principle of equal a priori probability when determining the value of life.

Want to know how much you worth? Your value to society? Look at what you earn in a free market.

And the statement 'obey my rules or die' is psychopathic. You are a psychopath if you adhere to that statement.

Psychopath, like......... Norman Bates.

*edit. Lets rebuke this statement of worth quickly.

Is Einstein worth the same as an uneducated peasant in Africa? Your statement says yes. I say no.

Are you Einstein? No... so what's that to you?
And why should the life of an "uneducated peasant" worth less than yours?
If you want a "free market" or a completely free market, you have to pick the whole lot, not cherry picking just what may suit you.

BTW; I'm not saying it is right to kill people to force them to comply to something, I'm just pointing you what lies beneath the bed of roses in your head.

No what you said was if people do what you say you let them live, which, can be restated, if you don't do what I say you die.

When you say you want a law to be used to effect an outcome, this is exactly what your saying. A law is the right to force compliance, failure to comply is met with kidnapping and death. (jail is kidnapping, resisting arrest is suicide by police).

When you say you think laws should be used you are saying no one may disagree with you, and anyone who does should be killed for acting upon their disagreement with you.

This is psychopathic.

And am I worth more? Yes. Why? Because I do more which benefit society. How can you gauge benefit to society in a free market? Wealth. As all wealth must be gained by voluntary interaction. More wealth = More benefit = More value.

Am I Einstein? Not yet, but I will do a lot more than him by the time I'm dead. That prick should not have contributed to the Manhattan project.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
That is a faction weighting of life and presumes a principle of equal a priori probability when determining the value of life.

Want to know how much you worth? Your value to society? Look at what you earn in a free market.

And the statement 'obey my rules or die' is psychopathic. You are a psychopath if you adhere to that statement.

Psychopath, like......... Norman Bates.

*edit. Lets rebuke this statement of worth quickly.

Is Einstein worth the same as an uneducated peasant in Africa? Your statement says yes. I say no.

Are you Einstein? No... so what's that to you?
And why should the life of an "uneducated peasant" worth less than yours?
If you want a "free market" or a completely free market, you have to pick the whole lot, not cherry picking just what may suit you.

BTW; I'm not saying it is right to kill people to force them to comply to something, I'm just pointing you what lies beneath the bed of roses in your head.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500


My logic is laid bare and flawless. Instead of hiding behind sophistry PICK APART THE LOGIC, WHERE DOES IT NOT HOLD TRUE?

And this is called deductive reasoning and this is exactly what science is. Science is the description of nature with deductively valid rules. This is physics, this is what I do.

All you demonstrated is formal fallacy

Your deduction:

If it rains the street is wet?
Is the street wet?  
Therefore it rained

This is a fucking straw man and has nothing to do with what I said.

IF THERE IS A FLAW IN MY REASONING THEN QUOTE THE FLAW AND EXPALIN IT!



here's your logic in a nutshell.

1.  Govt regulate fish stock
2.  fish stock decrease
3.  therefore regulations decreased fish stock.

The obvious answer is overfishing decrease fish stock & govt regulation isn't enough to overcome the decrease.  Duh!

Besides this you haven't even shown any empirical evidence of fish stock before vs after regulation.  Thats why I ask for citation or study
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.

That would be ransoming, and since there are 7 billion humans in the planet and just a couple of specimens of a protected species, my response would be "let it live and we let you do it too", as your life worth way less in the planet context.
See?

Your saying people should do what you want them to do or you will kill them?

Your a fucking psychopath.

Nope, that's plain market rules. Your life's worth (as mine) is 1:7.000.000.000...

That is a faction weighting of life and presumes a principle of equal a priori probability when determining the value of life.

Want to know how much you worth? Your value to society? Look at what you earn in a free market.

And the statement 'obey my rules or die' is psychopathic. You are a psychopath if you adhere to that statement.

Psychopath, like......... Norman Bates.

*edit. Lets rebuke this statement of worth quickly.

Is Einstein worth the same as an uneducated peasant in Africa? Your statement says yes. I say no.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100


My logic is laid bare and flawless. Instead of hiding behind sophistry PICK APART THE LOGIC, WHERE DOES IT NOT HOLD TRUE?

And this is called deductive reasoning and this is exactly what science is. Science is the description of nature with deductively valid rules. This is physics, this is what I do.

All you demonstrated is formal fallacy

Your deduction:

If it rains the street is wet?
Is the street wet? 
Therefore it rained

This is a fucking straw man and has nothing to do with what I said.

IF THERE IS A FLAW IN MY REASONING THEN QUOTE THE FLAW AND EXPALIN IT!

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.

That would be ransoming, and since there are 7 billion humans in the planet and just a couple of specimens of a protected species, my response would be "let it live and we let you do it too", as your life worth way less in the planet context.
See?

Your saying people should do what you want them to do or you will kill them?

Your a fucking psychopath.

Nope, that's plain market rules. Your life's worth (as mine) is 1:7.000.000.000...
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500


My logic is laid bare and flawless. Instead of hiding behind sophistry PICK APART THE LOGIC, WHERE DOES IT NOT HOLD TRUE?

And this is called deductive reasoning and this is exactly what science is. Science is the description of nature with deductively valid rules. This is physics, this is what I do.

All you demonstrated is formal fallacy

Your deduction:

If it rains the street is wet?
Is the street wet? 
Therefore it rained
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Quote
to be some control; toxic waste disposals, protected species, etc.
I know what you mean but the problem of such way of thinking is that the "etc." part always expand and never shrink, except with a revolution.
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.


That introduces the concept of "tragedy of the commons".  If there were no regulations on the fish stock then laissez faire economics  will lead to overfishing.  Then nobody can eat tuna sushi anymore

You don't solve a tragedy of the commons by creating a government which is an even larger tragedy of the commons.

Fish stocks survived for years without quotas. Government gets involved, fishing stocks are raped to death. (see Canadian fish stocks).

Regulations don't have to come from govt.  industries can self regulate.  But usually govts create regulations because they dont have profit motive.  

Can you cite the study that suggests govt regulations respondible for decline in fish stock?  I like to see this.  

I don't need a study, just logic. Check this out.

Fish stock levels a problem? Yes.

Fish stock levels a function of fishing levels? Yes.

Fishing levels a function of fishing quotas? Yes.

Fishing quotas regulated by government? Yes.

So government is the cause of fish stock problems.

Fish stock levels is a tragedy of the commons problem? Yes.

Government is the cause of fish stock problems? Yes.

Government is a tragedy of the commons problem.

Tragedy of the commons problem needs to be resolved? Yes.

Government is the cause of the tragedy of the commons problems? Yes.

Remove the government.

Socialists complaining that this doesn't solve overfishing? Yes.

Lol. Overfishing a problem because of tragedy of the commons? Yes.

Tragedy of the commons exists because of the common? Yes.

Remove the common, land is now private.

Socialists complaining that people will rape their land for fish? Yes.

Land value will increase as a result of bidding for land by fishermen gauging its worth based on future return on investment? Yes

Future value a function of the amount of fish that may be caught over time? Yes.

Land value most valuable to those able to sustainably manage fish stock levels.

Person selling land sells to highest bidder? Yes.

Sustainable fisherman bids the most as the land is most valuable to him? Yes.

All land for fishing aggregates into the ownership of those most able to sustainably catch fish? Yes.

Fishing stock problem solved? Yes.

Fishing stock problem solved by free market capitalism.



On a side note about governments having no profit motivating for the creating of regulations.
Regulations are created so the government can then sell licences to breach said regulation. There is you profit motive.


On a side note, this exact same argument applies to any 'tragedy of the commons problem'

Pollution? Deforestation? Endangered Species? Clean Water? Everything! Just change fishing to whatever and it is still valid.



Sorry science doesnt work like that.  Need empirical data to create hypothesis.  And your logic is sketchy.  Land ownership?  Fish live in the ocean

By definition govts dont need profit because they can fund themselves.  Thats the difference between public vs private

My logic is laid bare and flawless. Instead of hiding behind sophistry PICK APART THE LOGIC, WHERE DOES IT NOT HOLD TRUE?

And this is called deductive reasoning and this is exactly what science is. Science is the description of nature with deductively valid rules. This is physics, this is what I do.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Quote
to be some control; toxic waste disposals, protected species, etc.
I know what you mean but the problem of such way of thinking is that the "etc." part always expand and never shrink, except with a revolution.
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.


That introduces the concept of "tragedy of the commons".  If there were no regulations on the fish stock then laissez faire economics  will lead to overfishing.  Then nobody can eat tuna sushi anymore

You don't solve a tragedy of the commons by creating a government which is an even larger tragedy of the commons.

Fish stocks survived for years without quotas. Government gets involved, fishing stocks are raped to death. (see Canadian fish stocks).

Regulations don't have to come from govt.  industries can self regulate.  But usually govts create regulations because they dont have profit motive.  

Can you cite the study that suggests govt regulations respondible for decline in fish stock?  I like to see this.  

I don't need a study, just logic. Check this out.

Fish stock levels a problem? Yes.

Fish stock levels a function of fishing levels? Yes.

Fishing levels a function of fishing quotas? Yes.

Fishing quotas regulated by government? Yes.

So government is the cause of fish stock problems.

Fish stock levels is a tragedy of the commons problem? Yes.

Government is the cause of fish stock problems? Yes.

Government is a tragedy of the commons problem.

Tragedy of the commons problem needs to be resolved? Yes.

Government is the cause of the tragedy of the commons problems? Yes.

Remove the government.

Socialists complaining that this doesn't solve overfishing? Yes.

Lol. Overfishing a problem because of tragedy of the commons? Yes.

Tragedy of the commons exists because of the common? Yes.

Remove the common, land is now private.

Socialists complaining that people will rape their land for fish? Yes.

Land value will increase as a result of bidding for land by fishermen gauging its worth based on future return on investment? Yes

Future value a function of the amount of fish that may be caught over time? Yes.

Land value most valuable to those able to sustainably manage fish stock levels.

Person selling land sells to highest bidder? Yes.

Sustainable fisherman bids the most as the land is most valuable to him? Yes.

All land for fishing aggregates into the ownership of those most able to sustainably catch fish? Yes.

Fishing stock problem solved? Yes.

Fishing stock problem solved by free market capitalism.



On a side note about governments having no profit motivating for the creating of regulations.
Regulations are created so the government can then sell licences to breach said regulation. There is you profit motive.


On a side note, this exact same argument applies to any 'tragedy of the commons problem'

Pollution? Deforestation? Endangered Species? Clean Water? Everything! Just change fishing to whatever and it is still valid.



Sorry science doesnt work like that.  Need empirical data to create hypothesis.  And your logic is sketchy.  Land ownership?  Fish live in the ocean

By definition govts dont need profit because they can fund themselves.  Thats the difference between public vs private
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Quote
to be some control; toxic waste disposals, protected species, etc.
I know what you mean but the problem of such way of thinking is that the "etc." part always expand and never shrink, except with a revolution.
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.


That introduces the concept of "tragedy of the commons".  If there were no regulations on the fish stock then laissez faire economics  will lead to overfishing.  Then nobody can eat tuna sushi anymore

You don't solve a tragedy of the commons by creating a government which is an even larger tragedy of the commons.

Fish stocks survived for years without quotas. Government gets involved, fishing stocks are raped to death. (see Canadian fish stocks).

Regulations don't have to come from govt.  industries can self regulate.  But usually govts create regulations because they dont have profit motive.  

Can you cite the study that suggests govt regulations respondible for decline in fish stock?  I like to see this.  

I don't need a study, just logic. Check this out.

Fish stock levels a problem? Yes.

Fish stock levels a function of fishing levels? Yes.

Fishing levels a function of fishing quotas? Yes.

Fishing quotas regulated by government? Yes.

So government is the cause of fish stock problems.

Fish stock levels is a tragedy of the commons problem? Yes.

Government is the cause of fish stock problems? Yes.

Government is a tragedy of the commons problem.

Tragedy of the commons problem needs to be resolved? Yes.

Government is the cause of the tragedy of the commons problems? Yes.

Remove the government.

Socialists complaining that this doesn't solve overfishing? Yes.

Lol. Overfishing a problem because of tragedy of the commons? Yes.

Tragedy of the commons exists because of the common? Yes.

Remove the common, land is now private.

Socialists complaining that people will rape their land for fish? Yes.

Land value will increase as a result of bidding for land by fishermen gauging its worth based on future return on investment? Yes

Future value a function of the amount of fish that may be caught over time? Yes.

Land value most valuable to those able to sustainably manage fish stock levels.

Person selling land sells to highest bidder? Yes.

Sustainable fisherman bids the most as the land is most valuable to him? Yes.

All land for fishing aggregates into the ownership of those most able to sustainably catch fish? Yes.

Fishing stock problem solved? Yes.

Fishing stock problem solved by free market capitalism.



On a side note about governments having no profit motivating for the creating of regulations.
Regulations are created so the government can then sell licences to breach said regulation. There is you profit motive.


On a side note, this exact same argument applies to any 'tragedy of the commons problem'

Pollution? Deforestation? Endangered Species? Clean Water? Everything! Just change fishing to whatever and it is still valid.


On another side note, don't you feel ashamed to call yourselves men yet insist that every problem you see should be solved by some nightmarish governmental parental figure? You have the body of a man yet the mind and will of a scared little boy. Grow a fucking beard.

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Quote
to be some control; toxic waste disposals, protected species, etc.
I know what you mean but the problem of such way of thinking is that the "etc." part always expand and never shrink, except with a revolution.
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.


That introduces the concept of "tragedy of the commons".  If there were no regulations on the fish stock then laissez faire economics  will lead to overfishing.  Then nobody can eat tuna sushi anymore

You don't solve a tragedy of the commons by creating a government which is an even larger tragedy of the commons.

Fish stocks survived for years without quotas. Government gets involved, fishing stocks are raped to death. (see Canadian fish stocks).

Regulations don't have to come from govt.  industries can self regulate.  But usually govts create regulations because they dont have profit motive.  

Can you cite the study that suggests Canadian govt regulations responsible for decline in fish stock?  I'd like to see this.  
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
So my response is : If you care about protected species, pay for their protection with your pocket and not mine by force.

That would be ransoming, and since there are 7 billion humans in the planet and just a couple of specimens of a protected species, my response would be "let it live and we let you do it too", as your life worth way less in the planet context.
See?

Your saying people should do what you want them to do or you will kill them?

Your a fucking psychopath.

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