Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? - page 17.

twiifm

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Quote from: BCEmporium on September 04, 2014, 05:29:39 PM

You like to assume a lot...
Prices of food, water and housing are adapted to each reality. A Toyota and Samsung are needless piles of junk we somehow are lured into value. Believing that a Toyota and a Samsung is needed and assuming I'm white makes you the caricature you are talking about.

And for the notice I'd been and lived on really poor countries... to see people that somehow were happy without a Toyota and a Samsung... and happier than many people I know with a Toyota or other brand and a Samsung or even iPhone.

The point is prices dont adjust because of locality especially when producers are foreign

I didn't say people are happier if they own a phone or a car. Im saying things like personal transportation and telephony can be a prerequisite to starting business. Because the huge gap of cost between these things and the local wages these people have no choice but to sell their labor for cheap because barrier to entry is too high to start a business.

Youre idea that $30 per month shouldnt be considered poverty if the median income is nonsense and ignores economic realties.

BCEmporium

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Quote from: wasserman99 on September 04, 2014, 05:39:12 PM

The ~~quality~~ quantity of food is lower as well.

Fixed! You have excellent dishes for low budget on those countries with quality excelling all McDonalds and other junk food Westerns fill up with.

wasserman99

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Quote from: twiifm on September 04, 2014, 03:11:52 PM

Quote from: BCEmporium on September 04, 2014, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: obocaman on September 04, 2014, 12:45:17 PM

30 dollars a month a lot? how can you survive?

Prices are usually adapted to the different realities...

Not when economies are globally connected. A Toyota car or a Samsung phone costs about the same regardless of the market.

The prices of the same goods are generally the same across economies, with some adjustments with different costs of labor, transportation, and the like. The reason people can survive on very little money in third world countries is because their standard of living is so low. Most people in third world countries do not have a car and those that do are generally decades old. Smart phones are several generations old and people will not use the latest and greatest models of phones. The quality of food is lower as well.

BCEmporium

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You like to assume a lot...
Prices of food, water and housing are adapted to each reality. A Toyota and Samsung are needless piles of junk we somehow are lured into value. Believing that a Toyota and a Samsung is needed and assuming I'm white makes you the caricature you are talking about.

And for the notice I'd been and lived on really poor countries... to see people that somehow were happy without a Toyota and a Samsung... and happier than many people I know with a Toyota or other brand and a Samsung or even iPhone.

twiifm

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Quote from: BCEmporium on September 04, 2014, 03:46:18 PM

Quote from: twiifm on September 04, 2014, 03:11:52 PM

Quote from: BCEmporium on September 04, 2014, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: obocaman on September 04, 2014, 12:45:17 PM

30 dollars a month a lot? how can you survive?

Prices are usually adapted to the different realities...

Not when economies are globally connected. A Toyota car or a Samsung phone costs about the same regardless of the market.

Let me see how much you require a Toyota or a Samsung to survive...
hmmm...
...
Got it!
0.00%

But like I said early, "poverty" has a very wide meaning.

Id like to see you live on $30 a month even in the poorest country and tell us if its fine because prices adapt.

Seems like you've never been to poor country before

You are the worst caricature of the privileged white male

BCEmporium

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Quote from: twiifm on September 04, 2014, 03:11:52 PM

Quote from: BCEmporium on September 04, 2014, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: obocaman on September 04, 2014, 12:45:17 PM

30 dollars a month a lot? how can you survive?

Prices are usually adapted to the different realities...

Not when economies are globally connected. A Toyota car or a Samsung phone costs about the same regardless of the market.

Let me see how much you require a Toyota or a Samsung to survive...
hmmm...
...
Got it!
0.00%

But like I said early, "poverty" has a very wide meaning.

twiifm

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Quote from: BCEmporium on September 04, 2014, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: obocaman on September 04, 2014, 12:45:17 PM

30 dollars a month a lot? how can you survive?

Prices are usually adapted to the different realities...

Not when economies are globally connected. A Toyota car or a Samsung phone costs about the same regardless of the market.

BCEmporium

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Quote from: obocaman on September 04, 2014, 12:45:17 PM

30 dollars a month a lot? how can you survive?

Prices are usually adapted to the different realities...

obocaman

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30 dollars a month a lot? how can you survive?

negafen

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Quote from: botany on September 04, 2014, 11:02:13 AM

Quote from: BCEmporium on September 03, 2014, 12:09:30 PM

A: NOTHING

No matter what system you implement, you will always have poverty. Poverty isn't even a measurable thing, it depends on state of minds, the only poverty understandable is that around basic needs, such as food or water, but you have people calling themselves poor because can't buy the next iPhone or a top notch car.

People living on less than a dollar a day, in the developing world - They would qualify as being poor.
You have to objectively set the income level to measure poverty.

A dollar a day is actually a lot for 3rd world country.

Some older generation from my family can survive on less than that.

BCEmporium

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Quote from: botany on September 04, 2014, 11:02:13 AM

Quote from: BCEmporium on September 03, 2014, 12:09:30 PM

A: NOTHING

No matter what system you implement, you will always have poverty. Poverty isn't even a measurable thing, it depends on state of minds, the only poverty understandable is that around basic needs, such as food or water, but you have people calling themselves poor because can't buy the next iPhone or a top notch car.

People living on less than a dollar a day, in the developing world - They would qualify as being poor.
You have to objectively set the income level to measure poverty.

The income means nothing, because people tends to think of what they wage to be a dollar amount. This gives a false data.
If I pay to one 1K/mo+1 house and to other 2K/mo but he has to rental a house for 1k/mo, they will be waging the very same, but everybody will say the second wages more.

botany

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Quote from: BCEmporium on September 03, 2014, 12:09:30 PM

A: NOTHING

No matter what system you implement, you will always have poverty. Poverty isn't even a measurable thing, it depends on state of minds, the only poverty understandable is that around basic needs, such as food or water, but you have people calling themselves poor because can't buy the next iPhone or a top notch car.

People living on less than a dollar a day, in the developing world - They would qualify as being poor.
You have to objectively set the income level to measure poverty.

yunkie

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I think something in between could be it.

wasserman99

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Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 05:14:32 AM

Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 04:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 11:09:11 AM

Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest.

Don't mention Cuba - it have to survive under U.S. blockade.

Try to export something to Cuba. It's their government that doesn't allow imports.

It is both. The US government is preventing goods from being exported to Cuba because they do not agree with Cuba politically. Cuba is preventing imports because they do not want their people to be influenced by the higher standard of living that imports can offer.

The main reason for Cuba's decline is because of the embargo but the standard of living is also negatively influenced by the communist economy.

giantdragon

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Quote from: tsoPANos on September 03, 2014, 10:21:45 AM

In my opinion, the most viable option is to have an
economic system based on capitalism along with some socialistic features...

EU countries have such mix and you probably heard how crappy is the life here!

Quote from: Ibian on September 03, 2014, 12:02:47 PM

Socialist countries all have sub-replacement fertility rate. The numbers are easier to acquire, just google "fertility rate ".

What, what?! Even North Korea and Cuba have higher fertility rate than the most "laissez faire" EU member - Germany.

Quote from: tsoPANos on September 03, 2014, 10:21:45 AM

Having convinced yourself of the present reality, hopefully we can agree that socialism does not work in the long run. Especially since the present model, and indeed all models used so far, rely on a constant influx of new, young labor as old people leave the work force.

Absolutely true for the welfare states (so called "socialistic capitalism", "Swedish socialism"). False for the truly socialist model (with planned economy).

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 01:53:04 PM

OK, considering that that's true, what don't they just trade with another country? They don't need to deal with the USA. They could also become more productive and therefore depend less on imports.

They do trade with other countries, but mostly for simply products. A lot of hi-tech equipment built outside U.S. use licensed American technologies, so foreign companies who will sell this equipment to Cuba can face penalties from the U.S. govt.

Quote from: giantdragon on September 03, 2014, 09:07:51 AM

I don't know if South Koreans can easily emigrate to North Korea. But people from other countries could do that. Why don't they?

Because Korean culture is very different from the Western (US/EU). BTW, immigration to South Korea from the West is also very small.

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 05:14:32 AM

Not dealing with someone doesn't mean don't letting him prosper. It's governments, with their interventionism, that don't let people prosper. Liberty and prosperity are correlated. http://www.heritage.org/index/book/chapter-4

Not for all people!

Nicolas Dorier

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Quote

Because capitalist countries (mainly U.S.) don't let them to prosper (e.g. embargoes, threads that demand to spend a lot of resources on the defense etc).

Embargoes is only made possible by state intervention, it has nothing to do with capitalism. And, but I enough explained that, I don't consider us as a capitalist country.

Timetwister

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Quote from: giantdragon on September 03, 2014, 09:07:51 AM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 05:14:32 AM

Try to export something to Cuba. It's their government that doesn't allow imports.

No. It is U.S. blockade that prohibits both importing and exporting to Cuba.

OK, considering that that's true, what don't they just trade with another country? They don't need to deal with the USA. They could also become more productive and therefore depend less on imports.

Quote from: giantdragon on September 03, 2014, 09:07:51 AM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 05:14:32 AM

If South Koreans really preferred North Korea, they would just emigrate. On the other way, North Koreans can't easily emigrate.

Again false! South Koreans being imprisoned (by home govt of course) for visiting NK!
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/asia/south-korea-activist-arrested/

I don't know if South Koreans can easily emigrate to North Korea. But people from other countries could do that. Why don't they? And can North Koreans easily emigrate? I bet they can't, like Cubans.

Quote from: giantdragon on September 03, 2014, 09:07:51 AM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 05:14:32 AM

Why are socialist countries poorer then? It isn't a matter of technology, but of freedom, property rights and capital goods per capita.

Because capitalist countries (mainly U.S.) don't let them to prosper (e.g. embargoes, threads that demand to spend a lot of resources on the defense etc).

Not dealing with someone doesn't mean don't letting him prosper. It's governments, with their interventionism, that don't let people prosper. Liberty and prosperity are correlated. http://www.heritage.org/index/book/chapter-4

BCEmporium

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A: NOTHING

No matter what system you implement, you will always have poverty. Poverty isn't even a measurable thing, it depends on state of minds, the only poverty understandable is that around basic needs, such as food or water, but you have people calling themselves poor because can't buy the next iPhone or a top notch car.

Ibian

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Whatever else a country needs to survive, it needs people. Socialist countries all have sub-replacement fertility rate. The numbers are easier to acquire, just google "fertility rate ". The reasons are more complex and not worth getting into here, but have to do with human biology.

Having convinced yourself of the present reality, hopefully we can agree that socialism does not work in the long run. Especially since the present model, and indeed all models used so far, rely on a constant influx of new, young labor as old people leave the work force.

tsoPANos

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In math we trust.

Capitalism can't solve poverty.
Capitalism is widely tested through the centuries.
It works, but there are always many poor people.
Socialism came here in the 20th century to help address this issue.
But it is still not proven to solve poverty.
In my opinion, the most viable option is to have an
economic system based on capitalism along with some socialistic features...

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