Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? - page 18.

giantdragon

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Quote from: gts476 on September 03, 2014, 12:46:14 AM

WW2 was a result of WW1, WW1 was a result of inbred royal family feuding.

Nope! Great Depression much likely was the reason. Hitler wouldn't have come to power if not supported by unemployed masses.

Quote from: gts476 on September 03, 2014, 12:46:14 AM

Argentine GPD fell as the country moved from free market voluntary trade to socialism.

Look on the dates (when GDP fell and when Kirchner family took the power).

Quote from: gts476 on September 03, 2014, 12:46:14 AM

USSR more productive and wealthy per person than the US in 1950 to 1960? Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that.

You should read my previous post more carefully. I never said this!

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 06:14:32 AM

Try to export something to Cuba. It's their government that doesn't allow imports.

No. It is U.S. blockade that prohibits both importing and exporting to Cuba.

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 06:14:32 AM

If South Koreans really preferred North Korea, they would just emigrate. On the other way, North Koreans can't easily emigrate.

Again false! South Koreans being imprisoned (by home govt of course) for visiting NK!
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/asia/south-korea-activist-arrested/

Quote from: Timetwister on September 03, 2014, 06:14:32 AM

Why are socialist countries poorer then? It isn't a matter of technology, but of freedom, property rights and capital goods per capita.

Because capitalist countries (mainly U.S.) don't let them to prosper (e.g. embargoes, threads that demand to spend a lot of resources on the defense etc).

Timetwister

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Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history?

Austrian economists are bourgeoisie followers, smart people have absolutely no trust to them!

Marxism polylogism. http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Polylogism

Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest.

Don't mention Cuba - it have to survive under U.S. blockade.

Try to export something to Cuba. It's their government that doesn't allow imports.

Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

If South Koreans really preferred North Korea, they would just emigrate. On the other way, North Koreans can't easily emigrate. The same happens with Cuba and happened with the USSR.

Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Capitalism killed much more (Great Depression, WWI, etc)!

Great Depression was caused by government interventionism, which is anticapitalism. The same about WWI. It wasn't the free market but governments which declared war and attacked others.

Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 04:42:54 PM

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

There was even no integrated circuit invented in the 1950. Technologies wiping out demand for labor without creating new jobs in adequate quantities as it had been during last centuries.

Why are socialist countries poorer then? It isn't a matter of technology, but of freedom, property rights and capital goods per capita.

gts476

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WW2 was a result of WW1, WW1 was a result of inbred royal family feuding.

YOU HAVE COMPLETLY IGNORED THAT THE FREDRAL RESERVE WHICH IS A SOCIALIST INSTITUTION WAS REPSONSABLE FOR THE GREAT DEPRESSION THOUGH MANIPULATION OF THE MONEY SUPPLY.

No one is more produce when less free. Energy is a function of degrees of freedom.

Argentine GPD fell as the country moved from free market voluntary trade to socialism.

Any system which has centralised control of the interest rate and a government monopoly of money is not free market capitalism as the medium of exchange is not free and so half of every transition is NOT voluntary.

USSR more productive and wealthy per person than the US in 1950 to 1960? Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that.

Communist troll is communist.

giantdragon

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Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 08:55:45 PM

And all evidence points to Austrian economics being valid and socialism, communism, fascism and collectivism all leading to reduced freedom and wealth (google for how to apply reason and logic)

Many examples show that some people produce more wealth when left without the freedom! Wink

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 08:55:45 PM

No cuba? Show 1 country that has created greater wealth and prosperity from socialism.

USSR during '50-'60. Among large developed countries only U.S. had higher standard of life then.

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 08:55:45 PM

The great depression was caused by an overexpansion of credit from the Federal Reservce by means of centrally controlled interest rates. The central control of interest rates is 1 of Marx's pillar of Communism! YOU CAN NOT HAVE FREE MARKET CAPATALISM WITH CENTRALLY PLANNED INTEREST RATES, THAT IS SOCIALISM.

I mean pure socialism (Marxism). It requires state ownership on all means of production, not only controlled interest rates.

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 08:55:45 PM

and WW1 is the fault of Capitalism? Try again.

I don't know about WWI, but WWII was definitely a result of the Great Depression.

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 08:55:45 PM

TECHNOLOGY DOESN'T WIPE OUT JOBS, IT FREES LABOUR TO BE ALOCATED TO MORE PRODUCTIVE AREAS OF THE ECONOMY.

At some point there maybe no more sector to move. I have described the problem very well in this thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/technological-unemployment-is-almost-here-318001

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 08:55:45 PM

and data for Argentina?

google!

[img=http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=5aeseZvY0bcCsM&tbnid=ioR0Jb3Klx7VdM:&ved=0CAUQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F4%2F46%2FGDP_per_capita_of_Argentina%2C_percent_of_US_(1900-2008).png&ei=7GIGVPHjF7Op7Aa6moCAAg&psig=AFQjCNEZu-z70jy4z1RZSr_1H5Q9vh9RnA&ust=1409791084478565][/img]

Argentinian to U.S. GDP rate have fallen far ago before left-wing Kirchner family took the power.

twiifm

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Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 08:56:34 PM

Quote from: zorke on September 02, 2014, 08:31:20 PM

The standard of living in South Korea does not even compare to the standard of living to the people in North Korea, it is many times better (to say the least).

A lot of info about North Korea you see on TV and popular websites is the U.S. propaganda, don't trust it!
Of course people in NK don't have some freedoms and cult of the leader is inflated, but stories about famine is total rubbish. May be in the past it was true, but now it is only propaganda!

Yeah right Roll Eyes

. You know this because you've been there?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/secret-state-of-north-korea/

gts476

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Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 08:56:34 PM

Quote from: zorke on September 02, 2014, 08:31:20 PM

The standard of living in South Korea does not even compare to the standard of living to the people in North Korea, it is many times better (to say the least).

A lot of info about North Korea you see on TV and popular websites is the U.S. propaganda, don't trust it!
Of course people in NK don't have some freedoms and cult of the leader is inflated, but stories about famine is total rubbish. May be in the past it was true, but now it is only propaganda!

This whole thing must be a troll.

giantdragon

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Quote from: zorke on September 02, 2014, 08:31:20 PM

The standard of living in South Korea does not even compare to the standard of living to the people in North Korea, it is many times better (to say the least).

A lot of info about North Korea you see on TV and popular websites is the U.S. propaganda, don't trust it!
Of course people in NK don't have some freedoms and cult of the leader is inflated, but stories about famine is total rubbish. May be in the past it was true, but now it is only propaganda!

gts476

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Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history?

Austrian economists are bourgeoisie followers, smart people have absolutely no trust to them!

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest.

Don't mention Cuba - it have to survive under U.S. blockade.

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Capitalism killed much more (Great Depression, WWI, etc)!

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 04:45:10 PM

Don't forget Argentina! One of the richest countries in the world! GPD per capita of the USA!
Then...........boom! socialism!

What, what Huh

Can you provide the data?

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 04:42:54 PM

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

There was even no integrated circuit invented in the 1950. Technologies wiping out demand for labor without creating new jobs in adequate quantities as it had been during last centuries.

1. Smart people turn to evidence. And all evidence points to Austrian economics being valid and socialism, communism, fascism and collectivism all leading to reduced freedom and wealth (google for how to apply reason and logic)

2. No cuba? Show 1 country that has created greater wealth and prosperity from socialism.

3. The great depression was caused by an overexpansion of credit from the Federal Reservce by means of centrally controlled interest rates. The central control of interest rates is 1 of Marx's pillar of Communism! YOU CAN NOT HAVE FREE MARKET CAPATALISM WITH CENTRALLY PLANNED INTEREST RATES, THAT IS SOCIALISM.

and WW1 is the fault of Capitalism? Try again.

4. What are you talking about integrated circuits for?!!?!?!? AND WHAT IS THIS TIRED OLD COMMUNIST TRIPE ABOUT TECHNOLOGY WIPING OUT JOBS?!

TECHNOLOGY DOESN'T WIPE OUT JOBS, IT FREES LABOUR TO BE ALOCATED TO MORE PRODUCTIVE AREAS OF THE ECONOMY.

and data for Argentina?

google!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/GDP_per_capita_of_Argentina,_percent_of_US_(1900-2008).png

gts476

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Quote from: Nicolas Dorier on September 02, 2014, 08:09:17 PM

Quote

Are you saying that political control doesn't effect ones ability to voluntarily associate?

?
No, I just argued that arab spring is not against wealth inequality created by capitalism, but against government taking too much power, thus not relevant to socialism/capitalism. (except from the fact that a real free market would radically limit government ability to take too much power)

government taking too much power IS socialism, more power = more central planning = more socialism.

zorke

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Quote from: giantdragon on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

The people of North Korea do not have social benefits. The vast majority of the population is starving and is living in fear for their lives and their family's lives.

The standard of living in South Korea does not even compare to the standard of living to the people in North Korea, it is many times better (to say the least).

Nicolas Dorier

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Quote

Are you saying that political control doesn't effect ones ability to voluntarily associate?

?
No, I just argued that arab spring is not against wealth inequality created by capitalism, but against government taking too much power, thus not relevant to socialism/capitalism. (except from the fact that a real free market would radically limit government ability to take too much power)

HomerS

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Socialism or Capitalism?
taoism

giantdragon

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Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history?

Austrian economists are bourgeoisie followers, smart people have absolutely no trust to them!

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest.

Don't mention Cuba - it have to survive under U.S. blockade.

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Capitalism killed much more (Great Depression, WWI, etc)!

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 04:45:10 PM

Don't forget Argentina! One of the richest countries in the world! GPD per capita of the USA!
Then...........boom! socialism!

What, what Huh

Can you provide the data?

Quote from: gts476 on September 02, 2014, 04:42:54 PM

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

There was even no integrated circuit invented in the 1950. Technologies wiping out demand for labor without creating new jobs in adequate quantities as it had been during last centuries.

gts476

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Quote from: Nicolas Dorier on September 01, 2014, 12:42:08 PM

Quote from: jjacob on September 01, 2014, 12:31:53 PM

Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on September 01, 2014, 02:20:25 AM

Quote from: giantdragon on August 31, 2014, 11:05:47 AM

Quote from: KonstantinosM on August 31, 2014, 10:47:03 AM

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

It takes time for revolutions to begin. We have had some in our times (think of the Arab Spring).

The arab spring is a protest against authority and censorship of the political power, there is no absolutely no link with free market and capitalism.

Are you saying that political control doesn't effect ones ability to voluntarily associate?

gts476

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Quote from: Timetwister on September 02, 2014, 12:09:11 PM

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history? Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest. Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea. What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Don't forget Argentina! One of the richest countries in the world! GPD per capita of the USA!

Then...........boom! socialism!

And now its a fucked, well done socialism, well done.

gts476

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Quote from: MightyStorm on August 31, 2014, 10:54:51 AM

There can be no solution to poverty in capitalism but you can google for the words of Geoge Carling about how you can deal with some poverty problems nowadays

A statement made with no reasoning or evidence, standard communist banter.

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

Then look into the rise in poverty under socialism.

Timetwister

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Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history? Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest. Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea. What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Nicolas Dorier

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Quote from: jjacob on September 01, 2014, 12:31:53 PM

Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on September 01, 2014, 02:20:25 AM

Quote from: giantdragon on August 31, 2014, 11:05:47 AM

Quote from: KonstantinosM on August 31, 2014, 10:47:03 AM

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

It takes time for revolutions to begin. We have had some in our times (think of the Arab Spring).

The arab spring is a protest against authority and censorship of the political power, there is no absolutely no link with free market and capitalism.

jjacob

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Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on September 01, 2014, 02:20:25 AM

Quote from: giantdragon on August 31, 2014, 11:05:47 AM

Quote from: KonstantinosM on August 31, 2014, 10:47:03 AM

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

It takes time for revolutions to begin. We have had some in our times (think of the Arab Spring).

Nicolas Dorier

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Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on September 01, 2014, 02:20:25 AM

Quote from: giantdragon on August 31, 2014, 11:05:47 AM

Quote from: KonstantinosM on August 31, 2014, 10:47:03 AM

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

Where and when ?

Topic: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? - page 18. (Read 30782 times)