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Topic: Steem pyramid scheme revealed - page 65. (Read 107064 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 07:39:19 PM
2. Globalized reputation-based elision can (typically) becomes a groupthink censorship. If instead they implemented like-mindness groupings for rankings (something along the lines of my first blog post on Steemit), there could be elision without globalized (one-size-fits-all) groupthink censorship.

First proof is the first contentious issue between Dan and myself on Steemit:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/notice-to-bot-spammers#@anonymint/re-dantheman-re-anonymint-re-dantheman-notice-to-bot-spammers-20160729t230945437z

Is the content removed from the blockchain? If it all stays, can't someone create steemit uncensored?

Did you read the linked debate? My entire point is that Dan, Ned, and Steemit Inc. hypothetically can be sued to censor the blockchain itself. They have enough stake to choose the 19 witnesses. And it is illegal to fork Steem. Checkmate.


Lol, "19 witnesses" sounds like a biblical story.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 07:34:33 PM
In my and others' opinion, Steem appears to be dying due to the voting algorithm:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dv8silencersteem/diagram-of-steem-along-with-helpful-faqs-and-answers#@anonymint/re-dv8silencersteem-diagram-of-steem-along-with-helpful-faqs-and-answers-20160730t004829817z

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dv8silencersteem/how-rate-of-posting-affects-content-award-and-how-to-calculate-the-penalty-if-you-have-one-detailed#@satanic.stoner/re-dv8silencersteem-how-rate-of-posting-affects-content-award-and-how-to-calculate-the-penalty-if-you-have-one-detailed-20160729t201930175z


So around this lady might develop a cosplaying sub-community which could upsell related games and paraphernalia:

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@tayla.barter/hi-steemit-i-am-tayla-barter-kinpatsu-cosplayer-and-artist

But there need to be incentives and features to promote creation of sub-communities.



This lady wants to work creatively as a freelancer, and she seems to think Steemit maybe helping her to achieve that goal:

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@diana.catherine/new-introduceyourself-post-and-info-about-me-i-still-think-the-founders-are-geniuses

We've probably lost the first one, as expected there is no way for her to build a cosplaying community within Steem's small usership and inadequate feature set:

https://steemit.com/@tayla.barter

The second lady is succeeding because she is articulate and she writes to the general audience of Steemit (and she has a lot of applicable experience). I even upvoted her latest blog about the "client from hell".

Another lady I highlighted upthread, has indicated she will stay tuned in for more features applicable to her blog:

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@jenelyn/hi-i-m-jenelyn-i-m-a-freelance-writer-newly-found-steemit-nerd-and-immigrant-to-the-us-this-is-my-story#@anonymint/re-jenelyn-re-anonymint-re-jenelyn-hi-i-m-jenelyn-i-m-a-freelance-writer-newly-found-steemit-nerd-and-immigrant-to-the-us-this-is-my-story-20160727t203311742z
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
July 29, 2016, 07:33:06 PM
2. Globalized reputation-based elision can (typically) becomes a groupthink censorship. If instead they implemented like-mindness groupings for rankings (something along the lines of my first blog post on Steemit), there could be elision without globalized (one-size-fits-all) groupthink censorship.

First proof is the first contentious issue between Dan and myself on Steemit:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/notice-to-bot-spammers#@anonymint/re-dantheman-re-anonymint-re-dantheman-notice-to-bot-spammers-20160729t230945437z

Is the content removed from the blockchain? If it all stays, can't someone create steemit uncensored?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 06:13:33 PM
2. Globalized reputation-based elision can (typically) becomes a groupthink censorship. If instead they implemented like-mindness groupings for rankings (something along the lines of my first blog post on Steemit), there could be elision without globalized (one-size-fits-all) groupthink censorship.

First proof is the first contentious issue between Dan and myself on Steemit:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/notice-to-bot-spammers#@anonymint/re-dantheman-re-anonymint-re-dantheman-notice-to-bot-spammers-20160729t230945437z
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
July 29, 2016, 05:57:58 PM
https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/notice-to-bot-spammers

Seems like we'll be having a reputation system to fight of spam/bots.

I was wondering what the hell his solution for that would be.  The obvious answer is being required to burn a fee to post.  His solution is far too complex and can have innocent users gamed or their speech suppressed imo...
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 05:37:20 PM
https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/notice-to-bot-spammers

Seems like we'll be having a reputation system to fight of spam/bots.

1. Daniel Larimer admits the Steem blockchain is not decentralized, permissionless, resilient because it is effectively controlled by Steemit Inc.:

Quote
All of your content will be available on the blockchain and will be visible to those who want to see it (unless we are required by law to take it down).

2. Globalized reputation-based elision can (typically) becomes a groupthink censorship. If instead they implemented like-mindness groupings for rankings (something along the lines of my first blog post on Steemit), there could be elision without globalized (one-size-fits-all) groupthink censorship.

3. The more paramount filter needed is to stop Sybil attacks. I was preparing to write about this in my next post in this thread.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
July 29, 2016, 05:23:58 PM
https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/notice-to-bot-spammers

Seems like we'll be having a reputation system to fight of spam/bots.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 05:18:50 PM
Also the other bound is afaics Steem can't be sharded (at least one reason appears to be that voting is a real-time globalized calculation so eventual consistency is not compatible). You've got to funnel everything through one witnesses at a time, round-robin. This is going to cause scaling and reliability problems. Just wait.

Currently there isn't much "real-time" in voting. The real time display is just an indicator; consensus payouts are made only when voting is quiescent for some period, so perhaps with some design changes eventual consistency could be worked in. It wouldn't work exactly as currently implemented so I agree there.

I mean I presume (haven't verified in the source code) there are real-time metrics regardless of when those metrics are tallied globally into voting and curation rewards, e.g. the rate of voting to determine each voter's voting power penalty (for voting too often).

So if one shard is lying to the other validators, the Nash equilibrium of the blockchain is destroyed because the shards are not independent as required until eventual consistency. The prior sentence could be giving you some hint into how I claim to have improved Satoshi's design so that not all validators (witnesses) must validate all transactions on all shards.

Although it may (?) be possible to do some global voting weightings that are confirmed cross-sharding without waiting for eventual consistency, these must have game theories such that because they can't be reverted when shards lie then there must be no advantage to lying. Otherwise all shards have to trust each other (without validating, else the advantage is lost of avoiding O(n2) validation scaling by sharding) which is not a Nash equilibrium. Note I can't see how to do those for global voting weightings, but maybe (?) someone else can devise a way.

The sharding seems to be more critically needed (eventually) to scale the very high TPS activity such as voting and comments (and eventually transfers), but maybe not for blog posts.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
July 29, 2016, 05:13:06 PM
Steem issued the shares via PoW and mined them themselves as a legal loophole instead of IPO.

What legal loophole Huh

Steem (and its founding whales at the helm) failed to qualify for the criteria needed to not be classified as an investment security according to the Howey test, so that investors' expectations aren't secured for future gains by a controlling party:

  • decentralized, leaderless organization
  • forks allowed (Steem license prevents this)
  • widely held so that investors so no party effectively controls the trading market

Afaics, there is nothing illegal about issuing tokens to yourself in a premine when you launch a decentralized, leaderless, open source project unless by doing so you destroy one of the criteria above.

Edit: I guess you could argue that by mining for their personal shares, then even though the Steemit Inc. corporation is legally culpable to have registered the shares given the failure to qualify for the above criteria, then at least @dan, @dantheman, and @ned, aren't legally complicit.

I think you kind of stretch things to the extreme in terms of legal culpability to the point where you would likely be indicting Satoshi as a pump and dump artist, which is probably why he's anonymous.

In other news, I found Charles Hoskinson's clone on Steem (gif movie by username "rahmat"): 

https://steemit.com/recipes/@aimeeathome/the-secret-to-the-best-crisp-on-the-outside-chewy-in-the-centre-chocolate-chip-cookies
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 02:16:37 PM
Steem issued the shares via PoW and mined them themselves as a legal loophole instead of IPO.

What legal loophole Huh

Steem (and its founding whales at the helm) failed to qualify for the criteria needed to not be classified as an investment security according to the Howey test, so that investors' expectations aren't secured for future gains by a controlling party:

  • decentralized, leaderless organization
  • forks allowed (Steem license prevents this)
  • widely held so that investors so no party effectively controls the trading market

Afaics, there is nothing illegal about issuing tokens to yourself in a premine when you launch a decentralized, leaderless, open source project unless by doing so you destroy one of the criteria above.

Edit: I guess you could argue that by mining for their personal shares, then even though the Steemit Inc. corporation is legally culpable to have registered the shares given the failure to qualify for the above criteria, then at least @dan, @dantheman, and @ned, aren't legally complicit.
legendary
Activity: 3136
Merit: 1116
July 29, 2016, 10:22:26 AM
There's my post on why it's very difficult for anyone to get a scam label to stick on Steem.  The initial distribution doesn't bother me that much because I've always looked at proof of stake as being issuing shares of a private company in the first place and not being in the same category as Bitcoin.  It's basically just a company using the blockchain for something and not a Bitcoin competitor.  They compete more with Reddit, Twitter, and Paypal.  

It's only when people like Ethereum start claiming it's a replacement for Bitcoin does it become a problem.  They're two completely different things.  Steem issued the shares via PoW and mined them themselves as a legal loophole instead of IPO.  Normal companies wouldn't give out any shares for free, so it's whatever:

https://steemit.com/steem/@r0achtheunsavory/how-people-make-big-bucks-on-steem-and-why-nobody-can-get-a-scam-label-to-stick

I mostly agree, except they advertised in their threads, "no instamine, no premine, no ninjamine, totally fair!", when they instamined 80+% of the PoW stage. Now they tout their service as a decentralized mecca of free and fair discourse. Of course it's not decentralized - he who controls all the coins controls the blockchain in (D)PoS, so control of the blockchain is completely centralized. Additionally they have granted/instamined themselves the vast majority of voting power, so they mostly determine who gets the big payouts. It is a corporate token, but they pretend that it is some decentralized fairly mined coin, and ultimately I think that dishonestly is what will prevent the system from really catching on. Scam or no scam, I don't think you can blatantly lie to the people that you are hoping will use your service in this age of everything being recorded for perpetuity in a web archive somewhere.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
July 29, 2016, 08:15:42 AM
There's my post on why it's very difficult for anyone to get a scam label to stick on Steem.  The initial distribution doesn't bother me that much because I've always looked at proof of stake as being issuing shares of a private company in the first place and not being in the same category as Bitcoin.  It's basically just a company using the blockchain for something and not a Bitcoin competitor.  They compete more with Reddit, Twitter, and Paypal.  

It's only when people like Ethereum start claiming it's a replacement for Bitcoin does it become a problem.  They're two completely different things.  Steem issued the shares via PoW and mined them themselves as a legal loophole instead of IPO.  Normal companies wouldn't give out any shares for free, so it's whatever:

https://steemit.com/steem/@r0achtheunsavory/how-people-make-big-bucks-on-steem-and-why-nobody-can-get-a-scam-label-to-stick
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 07:45:57 AM
jcalfee appears to be a good programmer. Just glancing at his code. He appears to be using all the tricks, such as generator functions and I he hates noise same as myself noting he uses no superfluous semicolons at the end of lines:

https://github.com/steemit/steemit.com/blob/master/app/redux/TransactionSaga.js

I haven't studied this code deeply, but I presume they are using Node.js
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 07:12:54 AM
IMO this lady should have earned more and she is a resource that is being wasted because she seems very motivated:

https://steemit.com/@phanie90

More and more evidence that Steemit's userbase does not synergize with Asians at all:

https://steemit.com/@gennie

https://steemit.com/@jenmolon
legendary
Activity: 1138
Merit: 1001
July 29, 2016, 07:03:34 AM
Can someone please tell me how much money Steem has given away to bloggers thus far?

Double the amount of Steem Dollars outstanding -- $1.4 million -- is a reasonable ballpark estimate, so roughly $3 million.

Thanks.

https://steemd.com/distribution

So $3,000,000 ÷ $40,000 = $75 per signup

Active accounts are usually measured after 30 days, so we can say precisely but looks like active accounts are 1/5, so $375 per active user. Assuming your estimate of expenditures is correct.

It is roughly on par with advertising for signups:

https://www.flirtbox.co.uk/free-dating/2015/10/31/free-dating-sites-vs-premium-dating-sites/

Yet the money is going in users' pockets. So I'd say that is a positive. And half of the expenditure is locked up for 104 weeks minimum, i.e. isn't really spent cash.

That's still up to $30 000 of expenses per week and there's only circa $200 000 buy support for Steem & declining...

(Perhaps speculators have realised there is no actual business model or revenue source other than diluting them at >1000% more than the daily rate crypto speculators are traditionally willing to pay even on Poloniex https://poloniex.com/lending#BTC )
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
July 29, 2016, 06:59:24 AM
If they think it through, and how many potential issues it can have in a mature ecosystem, they'll probably cancel it.

Afaik, they can't cancel it. I presume they chose to optimize away a couple of bytes per transaction and thus they must normalize the balances every 3 years at current 100% annual growth in the money supply.

The reason I was aware of this optimization is I had read about some of Graphene's design decisions back when I challenged the claim of 100,000 TPS and they admitted it was only about 100 - 1000 TPS unless they had very tight control over the witness hardware. Remember I was the (one of the) guy(s) who first exposed that 100,000 TPS lie/hype last year.

What is the bottleneck between 100-1000 and 100k?

(ps, your voting power is almost constantly maxed out... vote some more Tongue)

That not every witness has the same level of ultra expensive hardware and connectivity. That was the case for a more decentralized assumption where witnesses (delegates) could come and go. But Steem appears to be a whale controlled blockchain, thus they can probably make sure the witnesses have a certain consistency of performance so as to handle higher transaction rates. But you are losing persmissionless quality.

If CPU is an issue, tapping GPU resources might make it pretty affordable to scale. All it'd take is a bounty to make the proper port to offload processing resources.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 06:30:08 AM
Sorry to harp on this point, but Steem is turning into a sob story bailout welfare program, for those can't produce in society normally:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@timd/my-first-week-on-steemit-making-usd700-and-saving-for-my-holiday

I would think we'd want to be attracting the producers of quality content and engaging, flourishing sub-communities.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 05:05:13 AM
Examples of that 80% attrition rate:

https://steemit.com/@kim-dahae (some guy calling her NIGGER)
https://steemit.com/@toplist (her interests were not met by like interests)
https://steemit.com/@chickfreak (she wanted to move her blog to Steemit but apparently realized it wouldn't work)

This may be hurting crypto-currency.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
July 29, 2016, 04:40:17 AM
Can someone please tell me how much money Steem has given away to bloggers thus far?

Double the amount of Steem Dollars outstanding -- $1.4 million -- is a reasonable ballpark estimate, so roughly $3 million.

Thanks.

https://steemd.com/distribution

So $3,000,000 ÷ $40,000 = $75 per signup

Active accounts are usually measured after 30 days, so we can say precisely but looks like active accounts are 1/5, so $375 per active user. Assuming your estimate of expenditures is correct.

It is roughly on par with advertising for signups:

https://www.flirtbox.co.uk/free-dating/2015/10/31/free-dating-sites-vs-premium-dating-sites/

Yet the money is going in users' pockets. So I'd say that is a positive. And half of the expenditure is locked up for 104 weeks minimum, i.e. isn't really spent cash.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
July 29, 2016, 04:08:52 AM
If they think it through, and how many potential issues it can have in a mature ecosystem, they'll probably cancel it.

Afaik, they can't cancel it. I presume they chose to optimize away a couple of bytes per transaction and thus they must normalize the balances every 3 years at current 100% annual growth in the money supply.

The reason I was aware of this optimization is I had read about some of Graphene's design decisions back when I challenged the claim of 100,000 TPS and they admitted it was only about 100 - 1000 TPS unless they had very tight control over the witness hardware. Remember I was the (one of the) guy(s) who first exposed that 100,000 TPS lie/hype last year.

What is the bottleneck between 100-1000 and 100k?

(ps, your voting power is almost constantly maxed out... vote some more Tongue)

That not every witness has the same level of ultra expensive hardware and connectivity. That was the case for a more decentralized assumption where witnesses (delegates) could come and go. But Steem appears to be a whale controlled blockchain, thus they can probably make sure the witnesses have a certain consistency of performance so as to handle higher transaction rates. But you are losing persmissionless quality.

Even if not whale-controlled, the number of primary witnesses was deliberately reduced to 19 to make it more feasible for them to all have high end hardware and connectivity. Of course this raises different centralization issues. Witnesses who don't keep up can be voted out, although that does raise some obvious attacks if not whale-controlled, as with all PoS.

Quote
Also the other bound is afaics Steem can't be sharded (at least one reason appears to be that voting is a real-time globalized calculation so eventual consistency is not compatible). You've got to funnel everything through one witnesses at a time, round-robin. This is going to cause scaling and reliability problems. Just wait.

Currently there isn't much "real-time" in voting. The real time display is just an indicator; consensus payouts are made only when voting is quiescent for some period, so perhaps with some design changes eventual consistency could be worked in. It wouldn't work exactly as currently implemented so I agree there.

Quote
Any way, I don't think this is the limiting factor for Steem right now. The limiting factors are more on the economics and voting rewards algorithm, and features of the UI.

Agree with that too.

Quote
Can someone please tell me how much money Steem has given away to bloggers thus far?

Double the amount of Steem Dollars outstanding -- $1.4 million -- is a reasonable ballpark estimate, so roughly $3 million.
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