Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 1739. (Read 3050071 times)

Not to sound pedantic. But to be exact the summer ends on 21th September  +-12hrs in the northern hemisphere

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3043021

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

Noted. I come from a management background, and the precise use of the terms is important in that context. The way it's used here is a bit confusing. Obviously I did get it, though I still don't understand the people that want to breakeven the day they get their machine. Ok, I understand the desire, I just don't see how they can reasonably expect it. Early adopters, maybe, but those days were gone before I ever investigated bitcoin. Which is unfortunate for me, but it's my own ignorance and or lack of due diligence about three years back. I am not actually in the race on the first ones shipped, as I was unable to raise the money. I might be in for their November price drop, though, and I expect a fair ROI pretty quickly, with a breakeven within a year even reinvesting my earnings into more mining equipment. And that is even under the assumption that the hashrate and difficulty continue their parabolic climb for some time.

I want to be in this for the long run, as I find Bitcoin to be immensely interesting and possibly even to be a new way of exchanging goods and services outside of the ever present bankster/Government Cabal that currently drives business models. I think it has the potential to lead to a great deal of decentralization of small entrepreneurs and of money itself. I'll never see it as equivalent to precious metals as a store of value, but as a means of exchange and easy liquidity, it has pretty fantastic potential. It is my hope to make sufficient gains in both standard fiat and precious metals over the course of a year or so that I can start to use BTC as my primary means of acquisition of goods and services. I also hope to be better involved in promoting that very thing, thus creating wider acceptance of bitcoin. It's not a hobby, per se, but an extension of my agorist leanings and dislike of central authorities. I see bitcoin as very subversive to the established and decaying order, and therefore think it worth accepting even if there are short term losses.

That being said, I think most everyone who gets a large scale ASIC device is likely to make a profit in a very reasonable time frame.

I've also been awake for better than fifty hours, so I apologize if this is a bit disjointed

First, a simple ROI formula: ROI = (Gains – Cost)/Cost.  That's the definition.  The term is otherwise defined by context.  When ROI is given in dollars instead of percentage or fraction, assume ROI = Gains - Cost.

Breakeven in three month is great for investments which do not depreciate over time, or depreciate slowly.
Mining gear depreciates quickly.  
Its profitability over time also drops at an exponential rate.  If its costs are not completely recouped within three months, it is unlikely that the costs will ever be recouped.

Example for the math-challenged:

If you slaughter a cow, and take the beef to the market, most of your profits will happen in the first few hours.  At the end of the day, the meat will be suitable only for dogs, and profits will be insignificant.  Do not expect any more profits the following day, the day after that, or the day after that day -- your meat is rotten, no moar monyz 4 U.

If you do not make ROI on your slaughtered cow in the first day, you don't make ROI in a month, two months, or even a year.  

Math.

Yeah well I know what the term ROI means but pretty much here assumes / acknowledges that it means profit past break even.

How that came to be? No idea but it beats writing

WHEre are the profits pAst break evEn? Where ArE da CHiPs??? etc 

I really should know that name. But it's not coming to me Several people have told me I look like Tommy Shaw, and I'm good with that! 

Well said, sir! +1

actually Theory of Games is where the term comes from. That's the theoretical underpinnings of military intelligence, as well as most advanced games, Chaos (Complexity) Theory, and several other useful data models for modeling and loosely predicting wide scale events.

My knowledge of English is exhaustive, and yours is pathetic. You should not step into a battle of wits unarmed, as not all of us are gentlemen enough not to accept the easy victory.

That's not merely ROI, which is in fact ANY income generated, it's a profit ABOVE breakeven, even given the cost of electricity. That time frame of breakeven and positive ROI is an accountant's wet dream, not a pessimistic outlook. Three months to see a profit above breakeven on expensive equipment is stupendous. You aren't merely spreading FUD here, you are showing a complete lack of any sort of business sense.

That is in addition to the other less tangible profits, such as making bitcoin more secure, more available, and more tradeable. All of these are possible, even likely outcomes of the massive influx of ASIC based mining equipment. I personally would be happy to hit breakeven or a bit above in six months on ANY fuckin' investment, let alone something as speculative as this. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, those are rather pessimistic numbers.

On the subject of Return on Investment, I have to say that most of you are misusing the term rather badly. Even those who I agree with Return on investment is simply making an income from your investment, whether or not it reaches breakeven or profitability. Breakeven seems to be the term most of you are referring to as ROI, whereas anything above that is profit, or positive ROI. There are basically three scenarios in which these devices will make zero ROI.

1. You give up and never plug the bitch in.

2. It's a total scam. Just a box of fans, in which case it won't mine.

3. It's broken on delivery. In which case a reputable company will try to make you whole. Given the nature and declining profitability of such devices, I would hope they offer some additional boards for the loss of time in such a case. Not all companies are BFL, and unlike many here, I don't think even they started out with the intention of fraud.

Your foto reminds me of Al Jourgensen  

I consider it a good day when I manage to piss off a Democrat and a Republican in the same sentence. It usually involves logic

Dude I would stick with the 80+ standard certification, downtime costs coin, killing your machine is also not profitable. Play it safe man. Love the username.

--

Also with regards to all this ROI nonsense. Two things;

1. Did the OG CPU/GPU miners know Bitcoin would increase the way it has? No. They were hoping it would, it's only now just began to gain momentum, and that depends on innovating mainstream uptake, ease of transaction, and availability to exchange, which is pretty sad most people concentrate on mining over this, it's where the profit really is.

This is because it takes brainpower to innovate and turning a box on takes none, and as a lot of the comments here prove Bitcoin mining is now full of the latter. I can only assume most are n00bs that have become interested subsequent to the media interest from the Cypriot ECB theft fallout, or were just plain daft prior, but I find it hard to believe many of the recent posts are from individuals, capable of handling command line code and GPU rig assembly, handle heat, etc. Clearly plugging in, and flicking 'on' is testing the limits of their intelligence, if they cannot navigate the reasoning behind recent hashrate multiples being the result of thr transition of GPU rigs --> what few ASICs devices have actually surfaced after the fraud that's occurred with BFL, and Bitsyncom.

Therefore you are still purchasing with the intention Bitcoin will move north over time, that is your real ROI if you must fixate. You'd have to be stupid to believe whilst profit margins over electricity exist people won't keep piling in to profit over a box they just plug in. How can you not expect this to got the way GPU farms once were? Oh right you were never there in the first place.

2. Ever heard of FinCEN (the US Finacial Crimes Enforcement Network), or the FSA (UK'sFinacial Services Auhority)?

NO Bitcoin mining company can promise a 'return on investment', promise to 'protection for your investment', or even mention the word; 'INVESTMENT', unless they have met ALL the requirements of a heavily regulated finacial services product. None of them have. It is illegal. This is why under Bitsyncom's 'No Bullshit Terms', they should actively be packing their pants, as they are a US incorporated company that promised just that, and claimed to price accordingly. This is very, very serious and any company offering such terms is quite frankly, screwed, and lying to their customers.

Good luck buying at an exchange all the i0coins, coiledcoins, geistgeld or even groupcoins that a miner could have been mining for you using merged mining.

Heck you are even forgetting to mention buying some namecoins and devcoins and ixcoins along with bitcoins to make up for what you could have (merged) mined...

Its too late now to rake in lots of low difficulty i0coins and groupcoins with a miner, but coiledcoins and geistgeld a miner still gets them easier than buying them on an exchange as far as I know...

-MarkM-

This argument has been going on quite a while, which I perceive as a good thing. It means that new people are still entering the bitcoin community.

The whole ROI discussion depends on your initial frame of reference.  If you are fiat centered then it is easy to get distorted by exchange rates and what not.

I prefer a BTC centric view when dealing with mining. 
Lets say you "invest" 50BTC at time t0 (roughly current Gox pricing for Jupiter to be on topic), and at the end of its useful life, t1 it has returned only 40 BTC. The miner investment was not a good decision as at time t0, you would have been better off in the long run (by 10 BTC) to have not "invested" in the miner. 

Now... if the hardware at the end of its useful life returns 60 BTC, then your investment was a good one and you made a 20% return.

If you start with a BTC frame of reference, then the math is easy... 40 (output) is less than 50 (input), ergo bad investment.  60 (output) is greater than 50 (input), congrats, great investment.  It is irrelevant if the exchange rate with your fiat of choice went to .0001 or 1,000,000. 

If you are in BTC only for profit, then I recommend buying BTC outright at an exchange.  If you are the kind of technical person that finds networking and system administration fun, get some miners you can comfortably afford and enjoy it. 

Nothing prevent you to buy more btc either and not just one,lol

If the bigest question here is will I make an ROI whith good chance of not or barelly I am out. What about profit and why I am risking so much?
Instead of buying an miner I am better of purchase now btc at $138.

Because the chances of a Jupiter actually mining just one coin are remote. OBVIOUSLY that was an example, a dead simple one.
I give up, heads are in sand here...not a gramme of logic.

Why bother, just buy 1btc and keep it!

So. If I buy a Jupiter now and mine just ONE BTC with it and BTC rises to 10k I won't be in profit?

I didn't see anyone writing this so i will.
If every 10 days difficulty increase by 30%:

30% more hashrate of the miner + delivery of miner on September 30 = original stated miner hashrate+ delivery of miner on September 20

So this "toward end of September" is not such a bad thing.

Some of you guys gotta stop looking at the short game and look at the long game. Knc wants to be a major player in this game and they know time is of the essence, especially with Hashfash Cointerra (with an impressive resume) and others coming to the market, they have to stay ahead of the game or they'll be tossed aside and lose a huge amount of face/future revenue to these other companies. In my opinion I'm glad they mentioned end Of September as I want them to continue to under-promise and over deliver. hint* hint*  

If they do they'll have a strong foot hold in the market and more trusting customers/investors willing to purchase/reinvest for gen 2 gen 3 based on there fast delivery.