please please please can we stop talking about die and package size. lets wait until we see some more specs or a picture first....
ANYWAY
im really hoping they are sandbagging us and making the units now. that would be a huge surprise if they delivered early.
Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 1964. (Read 3049501 times)
BKPDUKE
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
Do you even realize what you said? You just said you are going to have the equivalent of a FOOTBALL FIELD to mount a CPU the size of a lunchbox.
WTF is so hard to understand is 28nm is the LINE WIDTH not the AREA. Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains.
Sorry but your before you too have denied yourself.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2714375
You say you never use a big package for a small chip.
Instead here says that the intel chips have a die (80 & 130mm2)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2713678
When we know that the package of these chips is much higher
Pentium 3 socket 370
Pentium 4 socket 478
I have not found the exact measurements but are between 50x50mm and 60x60mm
This package is a 2500-3600mm2. This is package 21 times biggest than Die
By this mistake I will not say "Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains", a lapsus what has anyone.
Those a PGA SOCKETED chips.
KNC is using BGA UNSOCKETED chips.
PGA vs. BGA is not so big as the Socketed part. You create a socket so that you give people an upgrade path or choice of different CPUs to plug into a universal board that can be used among different CPUs. THIS IS AN EXTRA EXPENSE, so you only do it if you want to cover the market in different tiers of performance (and price) for your product.
KNC is soldering their chips directly to the mainboard - NO SOCKET. Why does this matter? If you don't use a Socket, then your "package" does not need to be nearly as big.
Plus P3/P4 is over a decade old. You don't don't make packages that big anymore. It costs more money over a smaller, compact package.
The fanboys here keep missing the point: EVEN IF 75% of this package is just wasted space, that leaves a die size of 750mm2. That would make this one of, if not the largest, mass-produced dies ever. If true, that's just asking for trouble.
Would love for KNC to post some screens of the wafers or dies and more technical info. IMO you only stay this quiet when you are up a creek without a paddle.
XBOX-WII & PS3 CPU's are BGA soldered. Their DIE size are less than 15 & 17% of package size.
XBOX
http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/cpu/CPU.jpg
PS3
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061127/124495/?SS=imgview_e&FD=-2047582866&ad_q
WII
http://megagames.com/news/nintendo-rd-director-defends-wii-u-cpu-speed
Bkpduke and erk, view this short video from open day at KnC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-je8XRCdY
They (KnC) stated quite clearly, the chip (the package) would be around the size shown (about 60 mm x 60 mm) not the die, which will be much smaller.
(That worries me, because while the yield will be higher, the heat density will be quite higher too.)
They (KnC) stated quite clearly, the chip (the package) would be around the size shown (about 60 mm x 60 mm) not the die, which will be much smaller.
(That worries me, because while the yield will be higher, the heat density will be quite higher too.)
Hmm.... let's see if kncminer has said anything lately.... nope, just people with too much time on their hands arguing about off topic shit.
+1
Hmm.... let's see if kncminer has said anything lately.... nope, just people with too much time on their hands arguing about off topic shit.
Plus P3/P4 is over a decade old. You don't don't make packages that big anymore. It costs more money over a smaller, compact package.
Has anyone made profitability calculations based on projected difficulty by the time these come out? These look like a fantastic deal now, but will they be in September, October, November. If they are released by then that is.
I am also curious about this quoted from their website.
They say here that they are currently mining, yet they only show 3d sketches of their product which leads to the assumption that it is not even produced yet. I do get why people that make ASICs would want to spread them around, especially since one can only cash out so many bitcoins per day/month, but it only makes sense that anyone creating these would want to mine for at least a couple months before releasing them, and if they are not even made yet is it really safe to believe these will be released this fall as they say?
And what are they mining with now, FPGAs, XFX cards?
Or maybe, they are mining with them right now (this being the couple months prior) and not releasing a photo because then they would have to come up with a reason for why they are not shipping yet.
I am also curious about this quoted from their website.
Quote
Why are you selling the Miners and don’t mine yourself (will you use the miners for mining yourself)?
We are mining ourselves, but we believe in the bitcoin project and a diversified market is the best for all parties. We will continue to mine but we do not believe in a monopoly of miners.
We are mining ourselves, but we believe in the bitcoin project and a diversified market is the best for all parties. We will continue to mine but we do not believe in a monopoly of miners.
They say here that they are currently mining, yet they only show 3d sketches of their product which leads to the assumption that it is not even produced yet. I do get why people that make ASICs would want to spread them around, especially since one can only cash out so many bitcoins per day/month, but it only makes sense that anyone creating these would want to mine for at least a couple months before releasing them, and if they are not even made yet is it really safe to believe these will be released this fall as they say?
And what are they mining with now, FPGAs, XFX cards?
Or maybe, they are mining with them right now (this being the couple months prior) and not releasing a photo because then they would have to come up with a reason for why they are not shipping yet.
BKPDUKE
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
Do you even realize what you said? You just said you are going to have the equivalent of a FOOTBALL FIELD to mount a CPU the size of a lunchbox.
WTF is so hard to understand is 28nm is the LINE WIDTH not the AREA. Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains.
Sorry but your before you too have denied yourself.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2714375
You say you never use a big package for a small chip.
Instead here says that the intel chips have a die (80 & 130mm2)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2713678
When we know that the package of these chips is much higher
Pentium 3 socket 370
Pentium 4 socket 478
I have not found the exact measurements but are between 50x50mm and 60x60mm
This package is a 2500-3600mm2. This is package 21 times biggest than Die
By this mistake I will not say "Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains", a lapsus what has anyone.
Those a PGA SOCKETED chips.
KNC is using BGA UNSOCKETED chips.
PGA vs. BGA is not so big as the Socketed part. You create a socket so that you give people an upgrade path or choice of different CPUs to plug into a universal board that can be used among different CPUs. THIS IS AN EXTRA EXPENSE, so you only do it if you want to cover the market in different tiers of performance (and price) for your product.
KNC is soldering their chips directly to the mainboard - NO SOCKET. Why does this matter? If you don't use a Socket, then your "package" does not need to be nearly as big.
Plus P3/P4 is over a decade old. You don't don't make packages that big anymore. It costs more money over a smaller, compact package.
The fanboys here keep missing the point: EVEN IF 75% of this package is just wasted space, that leaves a die size of 750mm2. That would make this one of, if not the largest, mass-produced dies ever. If true, that's just asking for trouble.
Would love for KNC to post some screens of the wafers or dies and more technical info. IMO you only stay this quiet when you are up a creek without a paddle.
More FUD please, so the hashrate keeps low
BKPDUKE
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
Do you even realize what you said? You just said you are going to have the equivalent of a FOOTBALL FIELD to mount a CPU the size of a lunchbox.
WTF is so hard to understand is 28nm is the LINE WIDTH not the AREA. Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains.
Sorry but your before you too have denied yourself.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2714375
You say you never use a big package for a small chip.
Instead here says that the intel chips have a die (80 & 130mm2)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2713678
When we know that the package of these chips is much higher
Pentium 3 socket 370
Pentium 4 socket 478
I have not found the exact measurements but are between 50x50mm and 60x60mm
This package is a 2500-3600mm2. This is package 21 times biggest than Die
By this mistake I will not say "Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains", a lapsus what has anyone.
While there's a lull in the debate, and since it's almost the weekend, how about a little ASIC porn?
While there is no indication that OrSoC is involved with this organization, the pictures and discussions are pretty cool.
http://www.europractice-ic.com/docs/Annual_report_2012.pdf
While there is no indication that OrSoC is involved with this organization, the pictures and discussions are pretty cool.
http://www.europractice-ic.com/docs/Annual_report_2012.pdf
Thanks Loredo
bpduke knows what he's talking about, butthurt kncminer fanboys who blindly gave away their money beware.
I want to be clear that I WANT KNC to come to market. The more manufacturers the merrier and the better for all of us.
Just when we dig into the nuts and bolts, there are some things that really bug me.
1) Chip design appears to be huge - my main concern.
2) Chip has never been shown (ok, it's in manuf, but they have to have prototypes by now - you don't order up 1 mil chips unless you have validated the hardware)
3) Chip details like number of SHA256 "cores" has never been released.
All we have are some demos with FGPA hardware, nothing here.
Until I see more, my money goes behind chips we have actually seen: Avalon and Bitfury. BFL's business practices are so bad I'm marking them off my (personal) list.
bpduke knows what he's talking about, butthurt kncminer fanboys who blindly gave away their money beware.
BKPDUKE
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
Do you even realize what you said? You just said you are going to have the equivalent of a FOOTBALL FIELD to mount a CPU the size of a lunchbox.
WTF is so hard to understand is 28nm is the LINE WIDTH not the AREA. Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains.
Good information, still sad that you compare BFL (A company that has NEVER created an ASIC before) with OrSoC (A company that has been doing it for 10 years) and suggest they will have similar issues.
So we know KnC didn't design their ASIC, ORSoC did. Want to know another neat fact? BFL didn't design their ASIC, Chronicle Tech. did. Guess how long Chronicle has been in business? BTW, Chronicle Tech is a software company, not an ASIC designer.
Good information, still sad that you compare BFL (A company that has NEVER created an ASIC before) with OrSoC (A company that has been doing it for 10 years) and suggest they will have similar issues.
So we know KnC didn't design their ASIC, ORSoC did. Want to know another neat fact? BFL didn't design their ASIC, Chronicle Tech. did. Guess how long Chronicle has been in business?
BKPDUKE
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
28nm die size, wrapped in a 55mm package, with a 2048 ball count for thermal characteristics.
Wtf is so hard to understand? If you don't believe them, then don't buy.
I don't think many of us expect some cute iMiner like BFL wanted.. This is more like a trainset that they just keep growing and growing.
It is another reason why I ordered two Saturns because these might be pretty big and I rather heat two rooms than one.
It is another reason why I ordered two Saturns because these might be pretty big and I rather heat two rooms than one.
One more thing - this is why moving from say a 55nm node to a 28nm node for building your chips is SO important.
[...snip]
Going to be an interesting 12-24 months for sure.
I am amazed that if a company like Intel wanted to quickly design, build, and host in-house their own setup, the could literally capture > 75% of bitcoin production in a very short time. It all comes down to CPU design AND manufacturing process. Both of which Intel is king of the entire world in.
This is, IMO, a real good succinct explanation of the development landscape. Thanks for it.[...snip]
Going to be an interesting 12-24 months for sure.
I am amazed that if a company like Intel wanted to quickly design, build, and host in-house their own setup, the could literally capture > 75% of bitcoin production in a very short time. It all comes down to CPU design AND manufacturing process. Both of which Intel is king of the entire world in.
Also IMO, the reasons Intel hasn't and won't do anything with bitcoins are two:
First, they are too mainstream and too involved to venture outside the confines of Establishment,
and
Second, all-in, risk adjusted, there just aren't enough zeros on the numbers.
I think one thing that I am kind of worried about that I have not heard much talk about in this thread is how will Knc do the Burn ins for us and it not cause a bottleneck? Now if they REALLY get my BTC address and Burn in using my address then I wont care if it takes them another month to ship my unit, as long as it is running and paying me.. BUT this is a pretty major thing to pull off IMO and I hope it dont slow them down overall. Talk over at BFL is this is one theory of why BFL slowed so much as the Burn in was taking up a lot more time/space/people then they had the planned for..
I hope Knc is on top of this and has a plan..
I hope Knc is on top of this and has a plan..
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