Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 1961. (Read 3050071 times)

Quote from: ujka on July 13, 2013, 07:22:47 AM

at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.

It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.

If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.

Fair point @ 1st paragraph.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...

gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...

3d transistors, energy efficiency, memristors, graphene whatever...
Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad! Wink

I don't think that. BUT I know that currently 22nm is the best one can do. Smaller nodes are in the r&d stage. And 22nm is currently that much more expensive! Of course there are ways to make better chips, but it will certainly not be a next gen chip, more of a modified current gen chip. And a not-standard-cell design will also be, again, way more expensive in the making. And who would make that design/pay for its production? Our chinese friends with 35% of global hashing power certainly won't. they don't need to since space and power costs are nearly non existent. Avalon maybe, but I don't think they could pull it off in time to make a difference.

I have to agree with keenan & enk.. facts are facts..
KNC rigs are over 2 times more efficient than the next closest competitor, BFL. who is @ 2700 watts for 500GH, when KNC is less than 1000 watts for 400 Gh/s, so they mathematically will outlast those machines by over a factor of two!
Not to mention they paid 50 dollars per gigahash, (2500/50), when KNC's is only 17.50 per Gigahash (7000/400), thats almost 1/3 the cost per Gigahash.
So, 1/3 the price per Gh/s, and over twice the performance!!!
I look for KNC to be in the game for Quite some time!

Vycid

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

♫ the AM bear who cares ♫

Tried to put together a table with ASIC chips estimating how many chips (and GH/s) can go on a single wafer:

Code:

wafer(mm)   chip         process(nm)  die(mm^2)   GH/s(per chip)     DpW   GH/s(per wafer)
300         KnC              28        454,00         100            124         12400,00
300         bitfury          55         14,44           2           4717          9434,00
300         bfl              65         56,25           4           1167          4668,00
300         asciminer(?)    130         17,50           0,333       3877          1291,04
300         avalon          110         16,13           0,282       4214          1188,35
300         asciminer(?)    130         21,7            0,333       3112          1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)

KnC die size is not known, so I used 15% of their package size. Still a big die.
Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:

Obviously the yield depends on the killer defect density. The killer defect density depends on the tools and recipes being used in the process, the number of unit steps in the process, and the ability of the fab to do a good job with process control.

Most fabs will not run processes at lower than 70% yield because it is very difficult to be profitable.

androz

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Crypto-ideologist

imao hosting for the first 6 months could be the best choice
this is the critic period, if something goes wrong in that time (custom, shipping, hw problems) u will lose part of the most profitable time spot.

after u could evaluate if it is convenient to renew the hosting with more data available

one question
if u choose hosting u don't pay shipping, electricity and VAT
(u will pay VAT when u decide to import hw in ur country, right?)

merv77

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

1.21 GIGA WATTS

Quote from: Loredo on July 13, 2013, 10:06:48 AM

If they're smart - and they are - they'll provide equipment reinvestment or pool participation as an option. Hosting would facilitate this; in fact, such things might require hosted equipment.

hosting maybe a practical option but how can reinvestment help when difficulty reaches 1.6 billion and over?

400 GH/s with 1.6 billion difficulty and rate 1 BTC = $93 USD revenue for 1 month is $348.67 USD

what could be options to keep them running if hosting is costing $350 USD a month.

I know one option is for the value of BTC to rise, but this can't be controlled and it could also go down.

I'm not trying to put anyone off hosting or mining,
I just like to know more or maybe we can come up with some options here before deciding on hosting.

Loredo

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: nightengale on July 13, 2013, 09:41:59 AM

Quote from: mvidetto on July 13, 2013, 09:00:19 AM

Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...

For me it depends on the difficulty when my unit becomes available, the USD price of BTC at that time, as well as whether they will accept payment in BTC. If difficulty is way high and the profit margin is slim, I can run it less expensively at home, but would prefer it run there b/c of the guaranteed uptime. If they do come up with optimizations, I'm assuming they will make them available to everyone and not just hosted units...

My two cents on this:

This is going to be new equipment. Engineers always find tweaks and/or needed patches in things. If they're hosted, those will happen for sure.

If you're in the USA or Asia, you avoid all the issues in shipping and customs.

You want this stuff run - and monitored - literally 24/7. That is not practicable running it at home.

If they're smart - and they are - they'll provide equipment reinvestment or pool participation as an option. Hosting would facilitate this; in fact, such things might require hosted equipment.

nightengale

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: mvidetto on July 13, 2013, 09:00:19 AM

Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...

For me it depends on the difficulty when my unit becomes available, the USD price of BTC at that time, as well as whether they will accept payment in BTC. If difficulty is way high and the profit margin is slim, I can run it less expensively at home, but would prefer it run there b/c of the guaranteed uptime. If they do come up with optimizations, I'm assuming they will make them available to everyone and not just hosted units...

mvidetto

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...

ujka

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Tried to put together a table with ASIC chips estimating how many chips (and GH/s) can go on a single wafer:

Code:

wafer(mm)   chip         process(nm)  die(mm^2)   GH/s(per chip)     DpW   GH/s(per wafer)
300         KnC              28        454,00         100            124         12400,00
300         bitfury          55         14,44           2           4717          9434,00
300         bfl              65         56,25           4           1167          4668,00
300         asciminer(?)    130         17,50           0,333       3877          1291,04
300         avalon          110         16,13           0,282       4214          1188,35
300         asciminer(?)    130         21,7            0,333       3112          1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)

KnC die size is not known, so I used 15% of their package size. Still a big die.
Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:

titomane

sr. member

Activity: 389

Merit: 250

Quote from: bkpduke on July 12, 2013, 06:42:33 PM

Quote from: titomane on July 12, 2013, 05:29:12 PM

XBOX-WII & PS3 CPU's are BGA soldered. Their DIE size are less than 15 & 17% of package size.
XBOX
http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/cpu/CPU.jpg

That's a 30-35% die vs. package size right there (the RAISED board is the "package" - the rectangle on it is the DIE).

What!!!!!!!!! you are 10 years experience asic and say in this package only 3 die.
XBOX 17.8%
[img=http://s8.postimg.org/8anh3gbw5/cpuxbox_comp.jpg]http://

PS3 13.3%

[img=http://s11.postimg.org/hkjoyyz6b/PS3_CPU_comp.jpg]

Now also could tell """ Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains.""" If I think superior to others. But make me an asshole. You understand that you have to be more humble.

Mota

legendary

Activity: 804

Merit: 1002

Quote from: klee on July 13, 2013, 03:24:43 AM

Quote from: erk on July 13, 2013, 03:22:24 AM

at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.

It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.

If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.

Fair point @ 1st paragraph.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...

gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...

3d transistors, energy efficiency, memristors, graphene whatever...
Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad! Wink

I don't think that. BUT I know that currently 22nm is the best one can do. Smaller nodes are in the r&d stage. And 22nm is currently that much more expensive! Of course there are ways to make better chips, but it will certainly not be a next gen chip, more of a modified current gen chip. And a not-standard-cell design will also be, again, way more expensive in the making. And who would make that design/pay for its production? Our chinese friends with 35% of global hashing power certainly won't. they don't need to since space and power costs are nearly non existent. Avalon maybe, but I don't think they could pull it off in time to make a difference.

klee

legendary

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1000

gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...

Obviously something not based on standard cell design, eg. a 28nm version of Bitfury's design.

I went more futuristic lol

klee

legendary

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1000

at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.

It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.

If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.

Fair point @ 1st paragraph.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...

gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...

3d transistors, energy efficiency, memristors, graphene whatever...
Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad! Wink

erk

hero member

Activity: 826

Merit: 500

gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...

Obviously something not based on standard cell design, eg. a 28nm version of Bitfury's design.

klee

legendary

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1000

The mindless people spreading the FUD, are trying to drag down one of the most efficient ASIC designs out their atm, assuming it lives up to it's claimed performance, and it's the efficient ones that are going to stay profitable longest,

Design<>product

Mota

legendary

Activity: 804

Merit: 1002

at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.

It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.

If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.

Fair point @ 1st paragraph.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...

gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...

klee

legendary

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1000