Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 1962. (Read 3049501 times)
Question that just crossed my mind will these units come with power supplies? Or do we provide our own?
We need to ask support for a hosting plan for the Saturns.
at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...
Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad!
I don't think that. BUT I know that currently 22nm is the best one can do. Smaller nodes are in the r&d stage. And 22nm is currently that much more expensive! Of course there are ways to make better chips, but it will certainly not be a next gen chip, more of a modified current gen chip. And a not-standard-cell design will also be, again, way more expensive in the making. And who would make that design/pay for its production? Our chinese friends with 35% of global hashing power certainly won't. they don't need to since space and power costs are nearly non existent. Avalon maybe, but I don't think they could pull it off in time to make a difference.
KNC rigs are over 2 times more efficient than the next closest competitor, BFL. who is @ 2700 watts for 500GH, when KNC is less than 1000 watts for 400 Gh/s, so they mathematically will outlast those machines by over a factor of two!
Not to mention they paid 50 dollars per gigahash, (2500/50), when KNC's is only 17.50 per Gigahash (7000/400), thats almost 1/3 the cost per Gigahash.
So, 1/3 the price per Gh/s, and over twice the performance!!!
I look for KNC to be in the game for Quite some time!
Tried to put together a table with ASIC chips estimating how many chips (and GH/s) can go on a single wafer:
KnC die size is not known, so I used 15% of their package size. Still a big die.
Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:
Code:
wafer(mm) chip process(nm) die(mm^2) GH/s(per chip) DpW GH/s(per wafer)
300 KnC 28 454,00 100 124 12400,00
300 bitfury 55 14,44 2 4717 9434,00
300 bfl 65 56,25 4 1167 4668,00
300 asciminer(?) 130 17,50 0,333 3877 1291,04
300 avalon 110 16,13 0,282 4214 1188,35
300 asciminer(?) 130 21,7 0,333 3112 1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)
Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:
Obviously the yield depends on the killer defect density. The killer defect density depends on the tools and recipes being used in the process, the number of unit steps in the process, and the ability of the fab to do a good job with process control.
Most fabs will not run processes at lower than 70% yield because it is very difficult to be profitable.
imao hosting for the first 6 months could be the best choice
this is the critic period, if something goes wrong in that time (custom, shipping, hw problems) u will lose part of the most profitable time spot.
after u could evaluate if it is convenient to renew the hosting with more data available
one question
if u choose hosting u don't pay shipping, electricity and VAT
(u will pay VAT when u decide to import hw in ur country, right?)
this is the critic period, if something goes wrong in that time (custom, shipping, hw problems) u will lose part of the most profitable time spot.
after u could evaluate if it is convenient to renew the hosting with more data available
one question
if u choose hosting u don't pay shipping, electricity and VAT
(u will pay VAT when u decide to import hw in ur country, right?)
If they're smart - and they are - they'll provide equipment reinvestment or pool participation as an option. Hosting would facilitate this; in fact, such things might require hosted equipment.
hosting maybe a practical option but how can reinvestment help when difficulty reaches 1.6 billion and over?400 GH/s with 1.6 billion difficulty and rate 1 BTC = $93 USD revenue for 1 month is $348.67 USD
what could be options to keep them running if hosting is costing $350 USD a month.
I know one option is for the value of BTC to rise, but this can't be controlled and it could also go down.
I'm not trying to put anyone off hosting or mining,
I just like to know more or maybe we can come up with some options here before deciding on hosting.
Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...
For me it depends on the difficulty when my unit becomes available, the USD price of BTC at that time, as well as whether they will accept payment in BTC. If difficulty is way high and the profit margin is slim, I can run it less expensively at home, but would prefer it run there b/c of the guaranteed uptime. If they do come up with optimizations, I'm assuming they will make them available to everyone and not just hosted units...This is going to be new equipment. Engineers always find tweaks and/or needed patches in things. If they're hosted, those will happen for sure.
If you're in the USA or Asia, you avoid all the issues in shipping and customs.
You want this stuff run - and monitored - literally 24/7. That is not practicable running it at home.
If they're smart - and they are - they'll provide equipment reinvestment or pool participation as an option. Hosting would facilitate this; in fact, such things might require hosted equipment.
Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...
For me it depends on the difficulty when my unit becomes available, the USD price of BTC at that time, as well as whether they will accept payment in BTC. If difficulty is way high and the profit margin is slim, I can run it less expensively at home, but would prefer it run there b/c of the guaranteed uptime. If they do come up with optimizations, I'm assuming they will make them available to everyone and not just hosted units...
Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...
Tried to put together a table with ASIC chips estimating how many chips (and GH/s) can go on a single wafer:
KnC die size is not known, so I used 15% of their package size. Still a big die.
Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:
Code:
wafer(mm) chip process(nm) die(mm^2) GH/s(per chip) DpW GH/s(per wafer)
300 KnC 28 454,00 100 124 12400,00
300 bitfury 55 14,44 2 4717 9434,00
300 bfl 65 56,25 4 1167 4668,00
300 asciminer(?) 130 17,50 0,333 3877 1291,04
300 avalon 110 16,13 0,282 4214 1188,35
300 asciminer(?) 130 21,7 0,333 3112 1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)
Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:
XBOX-WII & PS3 CPU's are BGA soldered. Their DIE size are less than 15 & 17% of package size.
XBOX
http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/cpu/CPU.jpg
XBOX
http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/cpu/CPU.jpg
That's a 30-35% die vs. package size right there (the RAISED board is the "package" - the rectangle on it is the DIE).
What!!!!!!!!! you are 10 years experience asic and say in this package only 3 die.
XBOX 17.8%
[img=http://s8.postimg.org/8anh3gbw5/cpuxbox_comp.jpg]http://
PS3 13.3%
[img=http://s11.postimg.org/hkjoyyz6b/PS3_CPU_comp.jpg]
Now also could tell """ Please don't comment when it is clear you have @#$% for brains.""" If I think superior to others. But make me an asshole. You understand that you have to be more humble.
at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...
Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad!
I don't think that. BUT I know that currently 22nm is the best one can do. Smaller nodes are in the r&d stage. And 22nm is currently that much more expensive! Of course there are ways to make better chips, but it will certainly not be a next gen chip, more of a modified current gen chip. And a not-standard-cell design will also be, again, way more expensive in the making. And who would make that design/pay for its production? Our chinese friends with 35% of global hashing power certainly won't. they don't need to since space and power costs are nearly non existent. Avalon maybe, but I don't think they could pull it off in time to make a difference.
gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...
Obviously something not based on standard cell design, eg. a 28nm version of Bitfury's design.
at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...
Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad!
gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...
Obviously something not based on standard cell design, eg. a 28nm version of Bitfury's design.
The mindless people spreading the FUD, are trying to drag down one of the most efficient ASIC designs out their atm, assuming it lives up to it's claimed performance, and it's the efficient ones that are going to stay profitable longest,
Design<>product at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...
at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.
As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time...
I'm missing the point here.
If the problem is Knc not delivering, everyone should do his evaluation and decide to invest or not. It seems to me that a lot of people is faking huge skills and experience in chip design. But why the hell they are all day on the forum instead of producing their own ASIC?
If the problem is "ludicrous speed" increase within the end of the year, everyone is doomed - no matter which ASIC has been bought. Oh wait: everyone is doomed in a different way, and Knc right now still offers (one of) the best ratios between price and hash power.
Play your game, otherwise you can always go buy AAPL actions, they are cheap now!
If the problem is Knc not delivering, everyone should do his evaluation and decide to invest or not. It seems to me that a lot of people is faking huge skills and experience in chip design. But why the hell they are all day on the forum instead of producing their own ASIC?
If the problem is "ludicrous speed" increase within the end of the year, everyone is doomed - no matter which ASIC has been bought. Oh wait: everyone is doomed in a different way, and Knc right now still offers (one of) the best ratios between price and hash power.
Play your game, otherwise you can always go buy AAPL actions, they are cheap now!
at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor.If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along.
The mindless people spreading the FUD, are trying to drag down one of the most efficient ASIC designs out their atm, assuming it lives up to it's claimed performance, and it's the efficient ones that are going to stay profitable longest,
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