Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 397.

samsonn25

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Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 09:28:11 PM

Quote

Now that's an unfair bet. Why the difference in power costs?

No it's not an unfair bet because many pay less than $0.1/kwh for home electricity but almost nobody pays less than $0.15/kwh for DC hosting.

Quote

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

Normal miners have 50-2000w worth of hardware.

Big mining operations (50kw+) will not care about weight(shipping pallets is cheap) and they won't care 50% efficiency since they pay less than $0.05/kwh.

Sp30s are for those miners who are somewhere inbetween which is inefficient because you need to pay someone to host them.

Average electricity rate in US is .16 it can vary as low as .08 in Washington to as high as .37 in california and new york. MIne here in PA is .16 total, you are looking at rate of electricity cost and delivery, etc. This is total cost on your bill.

Most sources dont have the total cost.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/30/average-electricity-prices-around-world/

Add another .04 to .05 to the US for correct prices, for delivery, for the transportation use of lines etc.

jimmothy

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Average electricity rate in US is .16 it can vary as low as .08 in Washington to as high as .37 in california and new york.

Source?

RoadStress

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Quote from: rograz on June 14, 2014, 10:16:55 PM

Hey now, last year I ended up paying about $0,14/kwh averaged out over the entire year and I live in Taxland aka Sweden!

Sweden relies on nuclear and hydro power which is cheap. Even so a $0.14/kwh means that paying $0.15/kwh for colocation in a DC is equally the same. No loss there!

Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 10:19:50 PM

You are limited to 1 and only 1 sp30 at home where as there are many different ways you could max out your home circuit using rockminers.

Besides 3TH/s today is worth 6TH/s in 3 months.

No. You are limited by your power circuit. Everyone has X W spare for mining. Filling it with SP30 would mean that for every W that they have free they can accommodate 2Gh/s while filling it with rockminers means that they can accommodate only 0.9GH/s. The obvious pick is obvious.

Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 10:19:50 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 10:05:32 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 09:55:31 PM

Rockminer gives those with an electricity cap as low as ~200w a chance to mine while keeping a competative $/gh. Spreading the hashrate instead of shoving it all in to datacenters.

And sorry but any miner requiring 200w is close to useless when it comes to spreading the hashrate since the global hashrate just jumped over 100k Th/s so that is pure BS.

6TH is useless compared to a 5PH immersion cooled monster from xbtec.
I think you know that most of the sp30s will end up in datacenters where as a large portion of rockminers will end up in homes.

Besides the fact that you negated your own statement (yeah sure 200w rockminers will help spread the hashrate while there is a 5PH immersion cooled monster out there) I really wish that the sp30s will end up in datacenters and that a large portion of rockminers will end up in homes. I really do! Once the home miners will fill their power circuit I am sure that their next purchase in order to stay in the mining game will definitely be a SP30 or SP50 miner because of it's power efficiency since they will need to pay more for power and because of their construction which is DC ready. It all makes sense: keep power hungry miners at home where electricity is cheap and keep efficient miners in a DC where electricity is expensive.

Searing

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Clueless!

Quote from: opentoe on June 14, 2014, 08:42:35 PM

Quote from: Biodom on June 14, 2014, 07:34:34 PM

Quote from: s1gs3gv on June 14, 2014, 06:08:00 PM

Quote from: rograz on June 14, 2014, 02:36:17 PM

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl) and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

After the Jupiter KNC used all their energy and resources to their monster data center and that's why customers haven't received due attention or come out with another product or one working "Super Jupiter". Usually after 3-4 months a manufacturer would have another product out, but KNC didn't. They took the easy road, get richer and build a monster data center. KNC should make a public apology for shipping that hardware to people. If they were stand up they would have just given the customer back their money in BTC and some compensation. Not a box full of pieces of broken hardware.

completely agree...the 4 months off last year not shipping equip so we could 'hash' as they stated w/o competing against more PH was a scam...so rather then us getting equip
they got the 'supposed' equip 28mm we were supposed to get as modules....to make their giant PH farm

was an epic 'bait and switch' .they even got most of us to wait to get equip on the 'promise' modules were coming from nov till march ..so did not buy from compeitiors

selling miners to us is a 'sideline' due to the fact they promised Neptune....then imho BTC tanked and then they said 1 more time and offered Titan

imho they will not even offer equip at a consumer level after Titan it will all be 'virtual farms' due to the fact with $$$ they have from chip to farm they will have the
least expense to do so in the future...but the catch is they will always get the product (who's development paid for by pre-order) first to hash for their farms
it will work well for them unfortunately in my view

anyway thats how I see it...seems in bitcoin land there is a rush to 'centralization' for everything

live an learn (at least for me I always seem the last in line to go.."ohhhhhhh" as the light bulb goes off..then the obligatory 'damn it')

Searing

jimmothy

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Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 10:05:32 PM

Again you are not a miner and you shouldn't give advice of how miners should act. I just demonstrated you that you CAN host 6Th/s at home without the need of a datacenter. You CAN'T host 6Th/s at home using rockminer miners.

You are limited to 1 and only 1 sp30 at home where as there are many different ways you could max out your home circuit using rockminers.

Besides 3TH/s today is worth 6TH/s in 3 months.

Quote

Secondly only US miners have access to low power costs. All europeans (like myself) pay a premium price for electricity and having the possibility to host the miner in a DC at $0.15/kwh is actually GOOD.

Not all europeans have high electricity costs and I'm sure you know that. Sorry for those of you who do, but mining is simply not for you.(long term at least).

Quote

All miners already own mining equipment and are very close to their electricity cap that's why a DC where you pay the same price as you would pay home or maybe less comes very handy.

You could always sell your equipment to someone with lower electricity costs and buy more efficient in stock hardware when you need to upgrade.

Quote

And sorry but any miner requiring 200w is close to useless when it comes to spreading the hashrate since the global hashrate just jumped over 100k Th/s so that is pure BS.

6TH is useless compared to a 5PH immersion cooled monster from xbtec.

Anyways close to useless is still not useless. Keep in mind there are a few people who found blocks on their 0.33gh/s BE usb miners.

I think you know that most of the sp30s will end up in datacenters where as a large portion of rockminers will end up in homes.

Searing

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Clueless!

Quote from: opentoe on June 14, 2014, 08:03:29 PM

Quote from: McKinley on June 13, 2014, 07:02:21 AM

Quote from: Searing on June 13, 2014, 06:37:51 AM

yeah maybe ....my timing sucks..KNC's rep went to hell starting 1 wk after i got the Titan....jeez

but yeah I'm stuck with the Titan

as it is now it is pretty clear anyone with 5k or some such should just buy btc on the old (can it be old if btc born in 2009) the ''old' adage...anything UNDER 1k per bitcoin will seem like a 'deal' in 2 years....or the *we shall not mention crosses self* alternative of bust in 2 years

one or the other (at least my splat will be bigger then most if we all fall from 'orbit" neaha neaha)

Searing

yeah, no refund for the Titan - it's easy to guess why. Neptune was fucked up and people used refunds. With a Titan you're stuck forever with the pre-order. Investing in Bitcoins themselves has become more lucrative than hoping for good miners.

KNC needed a fusion of cash quickly and the TITAN was their best bet. They sure as hell snagged a lot of people I bet.

sigh...snagged..sigh (in my defense it was 2 weeks later KNC seemed to hit the skids)....snagged.....rubs crotch...they coulda/shoulda snag'd me elsewhere)

Titan ....jeez I guess the Drama of BFL last year was not enough abuse... (and 1yr 20day getting refund was not enough)

crap I'm a 'buzz' junkie on BTC .....its the danger man....

sigh

Searing

rograz

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Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 10:05:32 PM

All europeans (like myself) pay a premium price for electricity and having the possibility to host the miner in a DC at $0.15/kwh is actually GOOD.

Hey now, last year I ended up paying about $0,14/kwh averaged out over the entire year and I live in Taxland aka Sweden!

Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 10:05:32 PM

You CAN'T host 6Th/s at home using rockminer miners.

I'll tell my 4,4TH of S1s who are generating over 8KW of heat the sad news then, the Internet has declared them impossible Sad

Granted I have banished them to the garage since middle of may since they were starting to get a bit noisy!

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 09:55:31 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 09:37:43 PM

So you could host 2500W at home. Imagine hosting 6500W at home for just 6Th Roll Eyes

Mission impossible!

But 6TH is an arbitrary number which spondoolies decided would be ideal but is actually inefficient because you need to pay for hosting.

If you need to pay someone for hosting, you are losing money. As much as you might really want 6TH-20TH worth of equiptment, it is simply inefficient unless you can host it yourself.

Rockminer gives those with an electricity cap as low as ~200w a chance to mine while keeping a competative $/gh. Spreading the hashrate instead of shoving it all in to datacenters.

Again you are not a miner and you shouldn't give advice of how miners should act. I just demonstrated you that you CAN host 6Th/s at home without the need of a datacenter. You CAN'T host 6Th/s at home using rockminer miners.

Secondly only US miners have access to low power costs. All europeans (like myself) pay a premium price for electricity and having the possibility to host the miner in a DC at $0.15/kwh is actually GOOD.

All miners already own mining equipment and are very close to their electricity cap that's why a DC where you pay the same price as you would pay home or maybe less comes very handy.

And sorry but any miner requiring 200w is close to useless when it comes to spreading the hashrate since the global hashrate just jumped over 100k Th/s so that is pure BS.

jimmothy

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Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 09:37:43 PM

So you could host 2500W at home. Imagine hosting 6500W at home for just 6Th Roll Eyes

Mission impossible!

But 6TH is an arbitrary number which spondoolies decided would be ideal but is actually inefficient because you need to pay for hosting.

If you need to pay someone for hosting, you are losing money. As much as you might really want 6TH-20TH worth of equiptment, it is simply inefficient unless you can host it yourself.

Rockminer gives those with an electricity cap as low as ~200w a chance to mine while keeping a competative $/gh. Spreading the hashrate instead of shoving it all in to datacenters.

RoadStress

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Quote from: r0ach on June 14, 2014, 09:36:12 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 09:17:45 PM

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

The last time I had something like that "hosted" in my home was when I had over 2500w of GPUs mining in a room. It required having every window wide open in the dead of winter.

So you could host 2500W at home. Imagine hosting 6500W at home for just 6Th Roll Eyes

Mission impossible!

r0ach

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Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 09:17:45 PM

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

The last time I had something like that "hosted" in my home was when I had over 2500w of GPUs mining in a room. It required having every window wide open in the dead of winter.

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 09:28:11 PM

No it's not an unfair bet because many pay less than $0.1/kwh for home electricity but almost nobody pays less than $0.15/kwh for DC hosting.

Why would you assume that the spaghetti monsters will be hosted at home while the SP30 will be hosted in a DC? Why can't both be hosted either at home either in a DC? That would be a fair bet.

Also good luck hosting ~6500W in USA on 110V! Lots of re-wiring needed!

Quote

Normal miners have 50-2000w worth of hardware.

Big mining operations (50kw+) will not care about weight(shipping pallets is cheap) and they won't care 50% efficiency since they pay less than $0.05/kwh.

Sp30s are for those miners who are somewhere inbetween which is inefficient because you need to pay someone to host them.

So a normal miner would be able to get and host an SP30(2500W), but can't get/host the spaghetti monsters(6500W). Great find!

You are contradicting yourself again. You are assuming that regular miners will buy 6Th/s rockminer miners, but they won't buy an SP30. I don't understand why since the rockminer miners need a lot more power.

Please don't hesitate to show me a big mining operation with rockminer miners that isn't affiliated in any way with AM or rockminer. Will tip you 0.1 BTC for your trouble! But I'm sure that we won't see it because it's simply too much headache to set them up.

jimmothy

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Quote

Now that's an unfair bet. Why the difference in power costs?

No it's not an unfair bet because many pay less than $0.1/kwh for home electricity but almost nobody pays less than $0.15/kwh for DC hosting.

Quote

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

Normal miners have 50-2000w worth of hardware.

Big mining operations (50kw+) will not care about weight(shipping pallets is cheap) and they won't care 50% efficiency since they pay less than $0.05/kwh.

Sp30s are for those miners who are somewhere inbetween which is inefficient because you need to pay someone to host them.

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 09:05:33 PM

I don't need to buy 6TH/s to know how much it could earn.

I don't care when you will get your miner because that is irrelevant. All that matters is when the machines you are trying to sell will ship.

I am willing to bet that rxboxes delivered in 2 weeks at $0.1/kwh will break even before sp30s delivered in 3 months at $0.15/kwh break even.

Now that's an unfair bet. ~~Why the difference in power costs?~~ I know why. Because the big power requirements.

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

jimmothy

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Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 08:41:37 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 08:14:43 PM

And when you ROI before sp30's ordered today begin shipping, you can just sell your rockminer hardware and buy some in stock hardware that is cheaper and more efficient than the sp30.

Let's start a challenge. Go ahead and buy for yourself 6TH/s worth of rockminer hardware and mine with it on Eligius so that we can keep track. When I will get my first SP30 I will put it to mine on Eligius and we draw the line on 1st December. Then we compare the results. What do you say?

I don't need to buy 6TH/s to know how much it could earn.

I don't care when you will get your miner because that is irrelevant. All that matters is when the machines you are trying to sell will ship.

I am willing to bet that rxboxes delivered in 2 weeks at $0.1/kwh will break even before sp30s delivered in 3 months at $0.15/kwh break even.

s1gs3gv

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ex uno plures

Quote from: opentoe on June 14, 2014, 08:42:35 PM

KNC should make a public apology for shipping that hardware to people. If they were stand up they would have just given the customer back their money in BTC and some compensation. Not a box full of pieces of broken hardware.

Agreed.

opentoe

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Personal text my ass....

Quote from: Biodom on June 14, 2014, 07:34:34 PM

Quote from: s1gs3gv on June 14, 2014, 06:08:00 PM

Quote from: rograz on June 14, 2014, 02:36:17 PM

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl) and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

After the Jupiter KNC used all their energy and resources to their monster data center and that's why customers haven't received due attention or come out with another product or one working "Super Jupiter". Usually after 3-4 months a manufacturer would have another product out, but KNC didn't. They took the easy road, get richer and build a monster data center. KNC should make a public apology for shipping that hardware to people. If they were stand up they would have just given the customer back their money in BTC and some compensation. Not a box full of pieces of broken hardware.

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 08:14:43 PM

And when you ROI before sp30's ordered today begin shipping, you can just sell your rockminer hardware and buy some in stock hardware that is cheaper and more efficient than the sp30.

Let's start a challenge. Go ahead and buy for yourself 6TH/s worth of rockminer hardware and mine with it on Eligius so that we can keep track. When I will get my first SP30 I will put it to mine on Eligius and we draw the line on 1st December. Then we compare the results. What do you say?

jimmothy

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Activity: 770

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Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 08:09:35 PM

Of course hardware in hand is much much better than gambling wtf!

Yes but you don't have hardware in hand, you have a promise.

Quote from: RoadStress on June 14, 2014, 08:09:35 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 07:47:05 PM

So you admit that spondooliestech was talking shit when he said that the 20nm wafers would take at least 4 months? (maybe it wasn't a lie but he was simply wrong.)

Since I can't prove that KnC is lying or not I must take for granted what KnC stated. How long until they package the chips? It's almost 2 weeks and we got no update from KnC. Don't forget that AM got chips in April too, but it took them 2 months to have working miners.

KNC has demonstrated more than any company that they can take chips fresh out the fab, put them in miners, and get them out the door ASAP.

Still I expect it to take 1-2 months before neptunes ship after receiving chips.

What makes you think spondoolies is so much better than every asic manufacturer that they can go from receiving chips to shipping products in half a month?

They have demonstrated absolutely zero ability to do this considering they never started selling sp10 until they had a working unit.

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 07:47:05 PM

So you admit that spondooliestech was talking shit when he said that the 20nm wafers would take at least 4 months? (maybe it wasn't a lie but he was simply wrong.)

Since I can't prove that KnC is lying or not I must take for granted what KnC stated. How long until they package the chips? It's almost 2 weeks and we got no update from KnC. Don't forget that AM got chips in April too, but it took them 2 months to have working miners.

Quote from: opentoe on June 14, 2014, 07:49:32 PM

Boils down to a non refundable $5395 for a 90 day wait. http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/25/2014

25 September is too much. I'm thinking that if you order now your unit will be shipped on 10th September which is 2 weeks earlier.

Quote from: jimmothy on June 14, 2014, 07:54:55 PM

Would you gamble $5,000 on satoshi dice? If not then why preorder hardware? (it's probably riskier with much less reward)

You could always buy 6th/s worth of rockminer hardware for less than you could buy an sp30 preorder now. (shipping in 2 weeks vs 3+ months)

But if gambling is fun for you I would not recommend it.

You really mean this? You really think that gambling on satoshi dice is the same as pre-ordering an SP30? This is the biggest fail statement I have ever seen. Of course hardware in hand is much much better than gambling wtf!

6Th/s worth of rockminer hardware would weight around 80kgs and would need ~7kW of power and you will have 100 cables. OK! Good choice!

Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 397. (Read 3050076 times)