Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 701.

Phoenix1969

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LIR DEV

Quote from: The Avenger on January 24, 2014, 05:10:55 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:05:22 PM

CTS is legit.
Traced them finally... http://www.cms.uk.com/ they are indeed a subsidiary, and in the same building, and same voice on recording, and one digit off on tele # and My brother talked with Rebecca. I still don't want one though.

I tracked them down to CMS a few hour ago, thanks for the credit
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4714999

And I am 99% certain they are a SCAM. Don't say they are legit when they have produced NO credentials.

Really? What about this posted in their thread?...

Quote from: The Avenger on January 24, 2014, 12:55:55 PM

Seems legit. I hope they can push the delivery forward to 1st April though Tongue

Change your mind?....or playin' both sides?
I felt same way, obviously.. except the part about april 1st

April 1st rolls around.... we get a post...."April Fools", and the site disappears.... hehe

CYPER

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Quote from: itod on January 24, 2014, 08:40:26 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 07:46:43 PM

Quote from: itod on January 24, 2014, 07:06:12 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves?

There's very simple explanation why KnC would never do this: They can always sell the miners for more BTC then they will ever mine with them. People are extremely optimistic about difficulty increases, they don't believe hard facts they are getting from mining calculators, and many just want to mine regardless if they may mine with some BTC loss. How many times you've seen BTC/US$ ratio mentioned in the profit calculation, no matter if the miner is payed in BTC? This all boils to the fact that people are willing to overpay for any miner, not just KnC, so KnC would be crazy to keep the Jupiters for themselves and reduce their profits, when they can sell them for more than BTC amount that will ever be mined with them. You can be sure no miner manufacturer is keeping the miners for themselves.

KNC are not Ebay, so not true. A Jupiter sold now would probably be priced less than $5000, which is 6.25BTC.
You don't think they can't mine 6.25BTC, do you?

570 GHs Jupiter, if starting to mine today, would probably mine 6-6.5 BTC in it's lifetime. You are partly right it just may brake even if it's priced 6.25BTC, but if it is delivered two weeks from now it would very probably not break even by a large margin.

My point was they can price Jupiter 8 BTC, and I would bet with you they would sell every last one they put on the market.

Quote from: timmmers on January 24, 2014, 07:28:36 PM

If a Jup cost them 2k to build, it changes things compared to our situation.

It doesn't matter how much it costs to manufacture Jupiter, KnC pays that costs in any case, it only matters to them if they can earn more money by selling or mining with it, and they can certainly make more by selling it.

Why 570GH/s? They have a finished product hashing at 670GH/s stock.
Also your prediction of 6.5BTC in a lifetime for a 570GH/s miner is a bit unrealistic if you ask me: http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=2193847870&dcosts=500&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=570000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=844.28&dpowcon=30&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.25&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=0&action=calc

I predict that a 670GH/s miner would produce around 10BTC in total: http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=2193847870&dcosts=500&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=670000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=844.28&dpowcon=30&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.25&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=0&action=calc

Also they price their products in USD and I highly doubt that the price would be above $5000 if they release more Jupiters for sale.

My point was that even if it is a gamble to keep the miners it is a gamble worth the risk.

timmmers

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Quote from: itod on January 24, 2014, 08:40:26 PM

It doesn't matter how much it costs to manufacture Jupiter, KnC pays that costs in any case, it only matters to them if they can earn more money by selling or mining with it, and they can certainly make more by selling it.

Yeah I know, that's what I meant. With no risk compared to mining too. They are in an amazingly profitable business for now.
I can't think of another business where upfront costs are paid by customers then it's all profit and you still own the company with no shareholders or investors to answer to. No wonder so many are popping up trying to get into the game now.

itod

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Honey badger just does not care

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 07:46:43 PM

Quote from: itod on January 24, 2014, 07:06:12 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves?

There's very simple explanation why KnC would never do this: They can always sell the miners for more BTC then they will ever mine with them. People are extremely optimistic about difficulty increases, they don't believe hard facts they are getting from mining calculators, and many just want to mine regardless if they may mine with some BTC loss. How many times you've seen BTC/US$ ratio mentioned in the profit calculation, no matter if the miner is payed in BTC? This all boils to the fact that people are willing to overpay for any miner, not just KnC, so KnC would be crazy to keep the Jupiters for themselves and reduce their profits, when they can sell them for more than BTC amount that will ever be mined with them. You can be sure no miner manufacturer is keeping the miners for themselves.

KNC are not Ebay, so not true. A Jupiter sold now would probably be priced less than $5000, which is 6.25BTC.
You don't think they can't mine 6.25BTC, do you?

570 GHs Jupiter, if starting to mine today, would probably mine 6-6.5 BTC in it's lifetime. You are partly right it just may brake even if it's priced 6.25BTC, but if it is delivered two weeks from now it would very probably not break even by a large margin.

My point was they can price Jupiter 8 BTC, and I would bet with you they would sell every last one they put on the market.

Quote from: timmmers on January 24, 2014, 07:28:36 PM

If a Jup cost them 2k to build, it changes things compared to our situation.

It doesn't matter how much it costs to manufacture Jupiter, KnC pays that costs in any case, it only matters to them if they can earn more money by selling or mining with it, and they can certainly make more by selling it.

CYPER

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Quote from: itod on January 24, 2014, 07:06:12 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves?

There's very simple explanation why KnC would never do this: They can always sell the miners for more BTC then they will ever mine with them. People are extremely optimistic about difficulty increases, they don't believe hard facts they are getting from mining calculators, and many just want to mine regardless if they may mine with some BTC loss. How many times you've seen BTC/US$ ratio mentioned in the profit calculation, no matter if the miner is payed in BTC? This all boils to the fact that people are willing to overpay for any miner, not just KnC, so KnC would be crazy to keep the Jupiters for themselves and reduce their profits, when they can sell them for more than BTC amount that will ever be mined with them. You can be sure no miner manufacturer is keeping the miners for themselves.

KNC are not Ebay, so not true. A Jupiter sold now would probably be priced less than $5000, which is 6.25BTC.
You don't think they can't mine 6.25BTC, do you?

timmmers

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Activity: 1176

Merit: 265

Quote from: itod on January 24, 2014, 07:06:12 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves?

There's very simple explanation why KnC would never do this: They can always sell the miners for more BTC then they will ever mine with them. People are extremely optimistic about difficulty increases, they don't believe hard facts they are getting from mining calculators, and many just want to mine regardless if they may mine with some BTC loss. How many times you've seen BTC/US$ ratio mentioned in the profit calculation, no matter if the miner is payed in BTC? This all boils to the fact that people are willing to overpay for any miner, not just KnC, so KnC would be crazy to keep the Jupiters for themselves and reduce their profits, when they can sell them for more than BTC amount that will ever be mined with them. You can be sure no miner manufacturer is keeping the miners for themselves.

Not exactly true now maybe, they will pay capital gains tax on mining profits.. I hear tell that's 30% over there? Also, they aren't paying 13k for a Neptune or what we paid for the last rigs..they pay cost price, so much less needs to be mined to break even.

If a Jup cost them 2k to build, it changes things compared to our situation. They are probably the only ones running KNC rigs who will break even in bitcoins. If a day 2 Jup has only mined 50 coins so far and cost about 70 as posted a day or so ago.

itod

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Activity: 1988

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Honey badger just does not care

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves?

There's very simple explanation why KnC would never do this: They can always sell the miners for more BTC then they will ever mine with them. People are extremely optimistic about difficulty increases, they don't believe hard facts they are getting from mining calculators, and many just want to mine regardless if they may mine with some BTC loss. How many times you've seen BTC/US$ ratio mentioned in the profit calculation, no matter if the miner is payed in BTC? This all boils to the fact that people are willing to overpay for any miner, not just KnC, so KnC would be crazy to keep the Jupiters for themselves and reduce their profits, when they can sell them for more than BTC amount that will ever be mined with them. You can be sure no miner manufacturer is keeping the miners for themselves.

The Avenger

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At one point, knc said their devices accounted for 70% of the bitcoin network. So that would be 2520BTC/day.

They are supposed to be mining 5% of the total themselves, so 126BTC/day back in October.

If they were cashing that in daily, they were making (average $1000/btc) $126,000 per day mining BTC. $882,000 a week.

Difficulty increases, bitcoin price has gone up and down. Let's say it averages out at about $500,000/week and roughly it's been 12 weeks =

$6million in mining profits. No costs, as that is all passed onto the people paying for their datacentre.

Who would want to share that with anyone? Cheesy

CYPER

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Quote from: Biodom on January 24, 2014, 06:43:32 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves? Would you sell the opportunity to make a lot of money to random people for less money? Would you sell 100 dollars in the future for 20 dollars now?

With 28nm they have paid all their costs, made a lot of profit, so they have absolutely nothing to lose with deciding to keep all hardware and mine for themselves. What they have is a very rare opportunity to become one of the richest companies in the world if Bitcoin turns out to be what it was designed to be

Neptune is the same thing all over again: we fund, they ship what was ordered and then establish themselves as the leading mining company in the Bitcoin world.

It would not make much sense because they would be unhedged to the value of BTC. Selling some, mining some seems like a best of both worlds.
Where else customers are paying for your design? Nowhere, but in bitcoin mining hardware. What would you say if coinbase asked to prepay for the development of the wallet? There are usually VCs who pay for this, but they also got to keep the business interest. LOL

With a couple of millions in their pockets what is there to risk?

Biodom

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Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 06:37:37 PM

Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves? Would you sell the opportunity to make a lot of money to random people for less money? Would you sell 100 dollars in the future for 20 dollars now?

With 28nm they have paid all their costs, made a lot of profit, so they have absolutely nothing to lose with deciding to keep all hardware and mine for themselves. What they have is a very rare opportunity to become one of the richest companies in the world if Bitcoin turns out to be what it was designed to be

Neptune is the same thing all over again: we fund, they ship what was ordered and then establish themselves as the leading mining company in the Bitcoin world.

It would not make much sense because they would be unhedged to the value of BTC. Selling some, mining some seems like a best of both worlds.
Where else customers are paying for your design? Nowhere, but in bitcoin mining hardware. What would you say if coinbase asked to prepay for the development of the wallet? There are usually VCs who pay for this, but they also got to keep the business interest. LOL

CYPER

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Sometimes I wonder: why would KNC sell more Jupiters to the general public or even previous customers when they can build them and use them for themselves? Would you sell the opportunity to make a lot of money to random people for less money? Would you sell 100 dollars in the future for 20 dollars now?

With 28nm they have paid all their costs, made a lot of profit, so they have absolutely nothing to lose with deciding to keep all hardware and mine for themselves. What they have is a very rare opportunity to become one of the richest companies in the world if Bitcoin turns out to be what it was designed to be

Neptune is the same thing all over again: we fund, they ship what was ordered and then establish themselves as the leading mining company in the Bitcoin world.

ASIC-K

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Activity: 280

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Hell?

Quote from: Biodom on January 24, 2014, 06:25:53 PM

I find it "amusing" that last summer there were updates every week, sometimes several times a week, but now almost two months has passed without a peep about Neptune.

+1

like i said, popularity went to their heads and they got cocky.

now with decent competition, they wont be around for too much longer.

Biodom

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I find it "amusing" that last summer there were updates every week, sometimes several times a week, but now almost two months has passed without a peep about Neptune.

Gazza1

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Time to lower your prices KNC

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=429513.120

timmmers

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Activity: 1176

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Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:29:09 PM

Quote from: tdcooper99 on January 24, 2014, 05:26:32 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:07:00 PM

Not a single customer has been charged VAT by KNC as far as I know; it's all done external.

Yup, you are exactly right.... as far as you know. :-)

But in the meantime, as a European purchaser, UK specifically... I can assure anyone that cancellation includes purchase price, the VAT charged by KnC & shipping. I lost a few hundred £ unfortunately due to currency fluctuation... But the refund was completed within a week of being requested.

Are you telling me, that KNC charged you a VAT, collected that VAT upon purchase, and never refunded it when you refunded your order??

No, he says he got the VAT back. KNC don't pay the VAT right away, they pay it on sales later in the year so a refund isn't a sale anymore on their books and doesn't require any VAT. They collect it on the govt's behalf, the govt doesn't get it ...something that pisses a lot of small businesses off if they only just cross the VAT threshold, they may not have predicted they'd do that and not charge VAT, then become liable for it at year end when their sales exceed their pedictions. Some businesses even stay closed to avoid needing to register for VAT.

IF they keep any of your payment it's fraud unless there's a cancellation penalty clause.

With Sweden now classing mining as a business because BTC is a commodity liable for CGT on profits, it may even pay for miners there to register for VAT so they can claim it back...along with relief on capital expenditure on rigs and power etc it could make a serious difference now the game got a lot more industrial. How will they measure profits? No clue. lol

Easy2Mine

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einc.io

@tdcooper99
Thank you for your info

Phoenix1969

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LIR DEV

Quote from: tdcooper99 on January 24, 2014, 05:32:41 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:29:09 PM

Quote from: tdcooper99 on January 24, 2014, 05:26:32 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:07:00 PM

Not a single customer has been charged VAT by KNC as far as I know; it's all done external.

Yup, you are exactly right.... as far as you know. :-)

But in the meantime, as a European purchaser, UK specifically... I can assure anyone that cancellation includes purchase price, the VAT charged by KnC & shipping. I lost a few hundred £ unfortunately due to currency fluctuation... But the refund was completed within a week of being requested.

Are you telling me, that KNC charged you a VAT, collected that VAT upon purchase, and never refunded it when you refunded your order??

Errrrr... No? Full refund of everything..... I only lost money due to they difference in USD to GBP exchange between Dec. 2 and refund a couple weeks ago..

kk, thanks

CYPER

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Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:07:00 PM

Quote from: MANofthePEOPLE on January 24, 2014, 05:05:19 PM

Quote from: CYPER on January 24, 2014, 04:49:17 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 04:42:41 PM

Quote from: Easy2Mine on January 24, 2014, 04:16:46 PM

Is it a 100% refund you get from KnC inclusive the VAT and shipping cost?

KNC doesn't collect VAT monies. Your government does; and you pay it AFTER it's shipped, so....no.

You like to generalize, don't you Grin

America is not the world Tongue

In Europe if you are not VAT registered you pay VAT, which KNC collects on behalf of each country tax office Wink

Well you haven't paid any VAT yet though, I suppose? Here in Sweden you pay customs fee's when shipped.

Anyone of you considered having someone swedish pick it up and write down the value for customs btw? Would increase the value of it quite a bit

USA doesnt collect VAT.... they dont charge one. , VAT collected after shipment by holding house in australia as well.
don't know about UK, but everyone seemed to be like "manofthepeople" here, charged later.... when it gets shipped
Not a single customer has been charged VAT by KNC as far as I know; it's all done external.

Allow me to enlighten you how VAT works within the European Union, which is practically almost all of Europe.

KNC = VAT Registered business
KNC sells to private customer = VAT is charged by KNC and paid by customer on point of sale.
KNC sells to business customer = VAT is not charged to customer, but he is liable to report it on his tax returns and pay it after receiving the miner. He can use it as a tax credit towards VAT sales, but that not within the scope of this topic.

Now I assume most European customers are indeed private buyers, that are not VAT registered, therefore they pay VAT to KNC, who in turn are liable to report it to their tax office via the VIES (VAT Information Exchange System). Also if they sell to the general public they must display prices inclusive of VAT, which they don't.

So yeah KNC charges VAT to a lot of customers Wink

tdcooper99

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Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:29:09 PM

Quote from: tdcooper99 on January 24, 2014, 05:26:32 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:07:00 PM

Not a single customer has been charged VAT by KNC as far as I know; it's all done external.

Yup, you are exactly right.... as far as you know. :-)

But in the meantime, as a European purchaser, UK specifically... I can assure anyone that cancellation includes purchase price, the VAT charged by KnC & shipping. I lost a few hundred £ unfortunately due to currency fluctuation... But the refund was completed within a week of being requested.

Are you telling me, that KNC charged you a VAT, collected that VAT upon purchase, and never refunded it when you refunded your order??

Errrrr... No? Full refund of everything..... I only lost money due to they difference in USD to GBP exchange between Dec. 2 and refund a couple weeks ago..

krampus

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Village Idiot

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:29:09 PM

Quote from: tdcooper99 on January 24, 2014, 05:26:32 PM

Quote from: Phoenix1969 on January 24, 2014, 05:07:00 PM

Not a single customer has been charged VAT by KNC as far as I know; it's all done external.

Yup, you are exactly right.... as far as you know. :-)

But in the meantime, as a European purchaser, UK specifically... I can assure anyone that cancellation includes purchase price, the VAT charged by KnC & shipping. I lost a few hundred £ unfortunately due to currency fluctuation... But the refund was completed within a week of being requested.

Are you telling me, that KNC charged you a VAT, collected that VAT upon purchase, and never refunded it when you refunded your order??

That's definitely not what he said.

Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 701. (Read 3050075 times)