Topic: [TEK] TEKcoin Hi-PoS hybrid pos/pow no premine/ipo/ico - page 56. (Read 446099 times)

No all of us have 1mil in Tek , we are the middle class , stuck with the micro stakers , and the guy behind this have more than just getting ahead of the pack . They are many Pos coins now , what's if the point was to drive ppl away from this coin , from the dump going on , I would say quite a few already change ships!

I think under this scenario the whale would simply divide his 1,000,000 into 10,000 unique addressed piles of 100.  I would.

I suspect whale holders will not waste time with managing myriad of micro wallets staking micro amounts compared to whale amounts in single wallets. Also I'm not suggesting work, plan and save is wrong - to the contrary, I'm suggesting to make it worthwhile for the micro guy, he a needs a boost. The whale is still going to roll around in all his TEK. Let me illustrate my point:

Micro guy has 100 TEK and he can stake let's say 40% after 30 days                           Whale has 1 000 000 and he may stake let's say 1% after 30 days

100 x 40%  = 40  (140)                                                                                         1 000 000 x 1%  = 10 000 (1 010 000)

140 x 40%  = 56  (196)                                                                                         1 010 000 x 1%  = 10 100 (1 020 100)

196 x 40%  = 78.4   (274.4)                                                                                  1 020 100 x 1%  =  10 201 (1 030 301)

274.4 x 40%  = 109.76 (384.16)                                                                            1 030 301 x 1%  =  10 303.01 (1 040 604.01)

384.16 x 40% = 153.664 (537.824)                                                                        1 040 604.01 x 1%  = 10 406.0401 (1 051 010.0501)

537.824 x 40% = 215.1296 (752.9536)                                                                   1 051 010.0501 x 1% = 10 510.1 (1 061 520.15) 


As you can see the micro guy with the much needed 40% interest managed to get his 100 TEK up to  752.95 which is quite a nice figure for the micro guy - he feels empowered and ready to rock the boat.

As for the whale, look at his nice gain over 6 months - a whopping 61 520.15  The whale will not feel left behind with his gains at all, but best of all

NO runaway inflation to cripple TEK in the long run.

Why, sir, are you implying that Socialism doesn't work? That those who work and plan an save to accumulate wealth are WRONG?? How dare you!

Shit, I can't even type that with a straight face

That is about the most ridiculous suggestion I have heard to date. To combat that bit of socialism, larger holders would simply break their holding into a crap load of small holding. Brilliant.

While we do this, lets up the unemployment benefit, expand welfare, create universal healthcare, give out free cellphone to the poor, and pay for it all by taking that minimum stake from the folks with the largest TEK holding.  We should have them shot too.

It's true - compounding interest always becomes a problem a little (up to a lot) further down the road for everybody that accumulates: for those that already have lots now it is already a problem, for others with less now it will become a problem a little later, and for those with very little it will become a problem quite a bit later, but it will definitely become a problem for all. Maybe reverse the interest so those with least stake highest % and let it slide lower as holdings become more and of course those with the most let them stake at a minimum %

Nope, it's from NovaCoin. Uses the NVCS difficulty modifier for Proof Of Stake. NovaCoin, I believe, was the first direct descendant from PPC, so you're partially right

I've been involved in TEK almost since it's launch, which I think is why people think I'm one of the developers. But anyway... What we're discussing here is 'fixing' the staking diff by altering it's paramaters, and I wondered how that's been done on other NVCS coins. HyperStake, I know what was done. The whole thing was rebuilt along different lines, with a cap to staking rather than a change in reward based on difficulty. That might not be a terrible idea for TEK, but then again it might.

Personally, I'm not in a hurry one way or the other. The microstaking is irritating, but as pressF1 noted, it IS actually working as designed and lowering inflation rather significantly. In the end, maybe leaving it alone, or merely making microstake mean at least larger blocks, is all that needs doing. Me and Tek will stay in touch either way

I also think that it would be very wise to start working on use cases for TEK. I'm big on the idea of online poker/casino stuff, or a trade market (which someone told me is already on Cryptopia, so that could be something). But any coin that solely is traded for bitcoin without any other use case sooner or later will be a footnote in history. Since Tek was one of the first high POS coins, I'd hate to see that happen.

I dont think this is derived from NVC. I think its from PPC more accurately.

I have but I don't think along the same lines. I don't think it's artificial and I do think these are exactly natural market conditions: everyone trying to make the most of it. There's really nothing unfair about it. Just do the same if you think it's beneficiary. You would certainly help limit inflation that way and I don't think many people will complain about that.

If you have been following this, its not the fact that diff is high that is the problem. If diff were responding to natural market conditions, the coin would be doing exactly as it is supposed to.  The problem is that folk(s) are artificially rising difficulty, and dropping diff when they want to stake. This give them, the micro-stakers, an unfair advantage.  We goal is to even the playing field, not necessarily raise the stake percentage.

I don’t believe anyone who has thought it through is in favor of having the diff so low that we experience runaway inflation due to coin saturation. Nor are we interested in have a select few able to stake at high rates while the rest of us suck hind tit.  The coin is awesome, we have acknowledged that there is a problem, and wish to see it addressed.

As Biomech is so fond of saying, TEK is an old coin. I agree it has been around and has stood the test of time. It is time to fix any limitations it may have and move into the next phase of it’s existence.

Why do so many think a high pos diff is such a big deal? I think it’s the only instrument TEK has against out of control inflation. Forget about the micro stakers. They are not the problem. Inflation is, if you look a little further down the road... 

Again, I don't want runaway inflation, but I also don't want Bitmaster, or whomever else is micro-staking to be the only ones who can get a decent return on their investment because they have figured out a way to game the coin.

I think that difficulty is a mistake.  It is something that is user controllable.  If we are going to have a sliding scale for interest, it should be attached to something that folks cannot monkey with.

Or, just flat rate the coin and be done.

Targeting those 1k below will not fix it , as I'm sure there are many legitimate holder not mirco staking , with less than 1k . Any ways those ms have formed blocks with 1700-2000 you can check this using  presstab explorer. Even if u did target 1k below they will just readjustment buying a 30 day free period and they will be back at it

Is it possible to detect if a single wallet that has multiple address covering a spread of days , and force it to recombine into a single block , so that all matured coin will stake together and get combined into a single block , if they would like to split block on their own it would burn a tiny fraction of the coin , or make penalty for splitting block under a set of rules ,

Just thinking out loud . I may be wrong!!

imo:

1.  Eliminating staking for small stakeholders also eliminates their desire to use and support Tek.  (Consider them as potential users, instead of stakeholders.)  Unless Tek is used for something other than increasing stakeholder holdings, it will die ... as many other coins did which had no actual real-world usage.

2.  Any coin should treat all users the same.

3.  Tek cannot continue increasing the supply without bounds, or very soon -- at 10% or 40% -- there is infinite supply and zero value.

Basing the stake rate on the coin supply deals with all these issues.  Everybody stakes, everybody is treated the same, and the coin supply cannot increase to a point where the coin has zero value.

Unlike TEK that has a sliding reward % scale based on difficulty, HYP has a fixed reward % with a max cap of 1000HYP/stake.  It's a different way of getting to the same place.  HYP was originally 750% annual return and blocks would stake in 9 days.  Now difficulty is so high (ie HYP diff equal ~130, compared to TEKs high diff (lol) of 0.02) that people make blocks of over 20,000 and they can still take 30 or 60 or more days to stake...its nowhere near 750% any more.  Just like TEK is likley not going to be 500%/year anymore. 

The difference from TEK is HYP supporters know that high difficulty = high security...for some reason TEK supporters can't seem to see past their own 40% reward.  Even at current TEK diff it takes me like 12 seconds to stake my blocks so I only open my wallet 1 or 2 times per month....hassle free for me so I like that but it is pretty useless to TEK network support.  Compare that to my HYP wallets that run 24/7 desperately competing to stake blocks...I am providing much more suppport to HYP network in terms of peers and security.

I think TEK works pretty good as is.  Even getting 10% on a stake at current diff is still over 100% annual.  You have to look at POS mining like POW mining.  The GPU mining rig I bought for $2000 in 2013 that gave me 5 LTC/day wouldn't give me a squirt of piss now...why...difficulty has gone up from more miners and faster miners.  Also most pow coins have an emission curve...less coins/block as time goes on.  Inflation control is important in POS coins too.

If anything I'd support a re-ramping of the reward to difficulty scale so the the decrease in % is slower compared to difficulty increase but keep in mind more rewards is more inflation and price/TEK will just likely decrease.  All it will do is increase the fun factor of watching your balance increase...which is pretty fun.

I've not paid a great deal of attention to other NovaCoin derived coins for a long time. What have other coins done to address this? I know for HYP, Presstab reworked the whole POS scheme to the point that it's not even really based on NVCS anymore.

I have said before, that as a large holder, I am in favor of controlling inflation, even if it means lowering the interest rate.

If you took a million TEK and broke it into 1000 Tek blocks, you would have 1000 of them. A few larger holders staking that way, and you have micro-staking all over again. Just on a larger scale. This is a stop gap at best.

Lets face it, at current prices, 1000Tek is worth a whopping .80 cents US.  I really don't think 'the poor' who have less then 1000 are going to be complaining much. Dig into your penny bank and bring up your stock of coin, or don't invest in TEK.  That being said the <1000 threshold is not going to work for the reason above. We need a better solution.

So ideas.  1) Stake amount is based on how long you wait for maturity.  If we go to a flat rate, we could give a bonus for leaving it in a wallet longer. Such as, 10% if you stake in 30 days, 25% if in 60 or more? And no difficulty.  just round numbers and throwing out ideas.  2) if you attach to supply, how is it regulated?  Any way to attach percentage to trade volume? As long as volume is up so is interest? When it drops, so does interest?

The quandary here is: if we cut the stake too much, nobody will want the coin. If we don't cut it enough, runaway inflation and nobody will want the coin.  The other thing I would like to see fixed is the ability for someone to game the system. This is happening with the difficulty situation, we need to nip this once and for all.

If you have millions of Tek, you can afford to split a sizeable portion into masses of 1k+ blocks and still punch heavy with big stakers. That makes staking skewed in the favour of the larger account holders. It shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who is proficient in putting a command line together to recombine and split back into 1k+ stakes.

Regarding the proposal of a reduced rate of interest of 5% for others, we should be prepared to take that medicine ourselves ... 5% for all, and a timetabled sliding scale leading towards it. How would that go down with all you high rollers? That wouldn't solve the microstaking issue, but it would go a long way to putting a break on the coin supply.

So, that's three so far who have come out in favour of the <1k barrier. Not many.

Nobody, out of the millions of people worldwide, has yet come out totally against linking % payouts to the coin supply, so it looks like that solution is way ahead (see how things can be skewed the other way ).

So let's hear it from those who are against the %/coin supply link. Knowing that, I suggest we then look at what else could be viable, including <1k+.

I'm with Biomech... Or something similar, where people are 'rewarded' for blocks of 1k or over with a higher rate.

The number of blocks that stake at about 30 TEK, producing two blocks of, for example, 18 TEK which go on to produce 4 blocks of 11 TEK, etc... It's nuts. That's precisely why the difficulty has been growing every month and hitting levels that I've not seen since I started investing in TEK well over a year ago... Anything that falls under the 1k threshold could carry a reduced interest rate without pushing the difficulty up so much...

At least that way, the beginner gets something per month. And with TEK at the current price (let's assume that 500k = 1BTC, which for the sake of argument might be $500...), 1k would equate to about $1 - doesn't seem to be too unreasonable an investment for someone new to TEK, does it?

The <1K solutions single out the poor for low grade, or 0% staking. I am against this, even though I have a large holding. We shouldn't be penalising the poor. My view is that we should be encouraging newcomers to Tek and shouldn't be putting up barriers to those from around the world, and to those in our own nations who are economically challenged. The more, the merrier in my book. The <1k solution doesn't stop microstaking and could make it worse since 1k+ could become the new microstake.

The linking of the staking % to the coin supply works well with HoboNickels, although HBN does also have a staking cap which is not being suggested here. I'll be away for the next 10 days, but hope to pop in occasionally when time allows.

I notice some strong feelings being aired, but let's keep this business-like. Getting into arguments could obscure what we are trying to do here.

Who is against the staking % being cut loose from the difficulty and linked to the coin supply?
Who prefers the the <1k solution?