Tennis League All Thread - page 485.

Yaunfitda

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Quote from: Saint-loup on October 15, 2020, 05:53:49 PM

Quote from: Yaunfitda on October 15, 2020, 05:40:59 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

I hope not, this is the only big tournaments in the calendar and after a successful French Open I do hope that the tennis federation will go with the Rolex Paris masters with the same precautions they did with the recent French Open. Otherwise we will have to wait again to see big names playing high level tennis. And this could reset some of the players attitude and mentality, we need continuity.

I don't really understand how they will organize it because there is now a curfew in Paris at 9 p.m and events with more than 1000 spectators are forbidden.

Uh Ok, damn, it the city is on the curfew then it's questionable, and I don't think that the city is willing to give in just because they have a tennis tournament scheduled. And the options for them are getting smaller and probably the best is to suspend it, will be bad as I have said, but its the best for everyone.

vella85

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This is why I mentioned the Paris Masters as I'm not really sure that it will go ahead now with the new curfew rule for Paris and we must also remember that when the French Open started the cases were not as bad as they are now in France. The only thing that might see this tournament go ahead is if they only have day games or move the tournament to another city. I'm now starting to get worried for next year as Europe is coming into winter now and the virus could really get out of control which could see the same as we did this year with many sports being cancelled. Lets just hope that with these new lockdowns that it puts a stop to the virus getting more out of control.

casperBGD

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Quote from: Saint-loup on October 16, 2020, 02:09:12 PM

Quote from: btc_angela on October 16, 2020, 08:35:20 AM

Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

It will be unfortunate if Rolex Paris Masters will be cancelled as there are a lot of players in the top 10 who have showed interest already, like Djokovic, Nadal, and Thiem. So it is a strong field, so cancelling it will be a big blow again. So I guess the organisers will have to find a way, but we can't do anything if the whole country or Paris will be into lockdown. And as fans, it will be a big blow specially coming from a successful French Open despite the pandemic.

It's not the whole country, it's only the biggest cities...
But as Kemarit said it will be very difficult to organize the event because everybody has to be at home at 9 PM.
So they must schedule the matches in the morning if they don't want to get problems with the players, the staff and the public.

yeah, but i do not think that it is possible to start early enough to be sure that players will finish before 9pm, they can break the match at 8:30pm, if there is no sign that the match will be finished until 9pm, but from my point of view, most of these matches will be canceled, although indoor competition where players could have the distance during match are ok with covid rules, basketball season will be more influenced by Covid restrictions

Indymoney

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Quote from: Saint-loup on October 16, 2020, 02:09:12 PM

Quote from: btc_angela on October 16, 2020, 08:35:20 AM

Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

It will be unfortunate if Rolex Paris Masters will be cancelled as there are a lot of players in the top 10 who have showed interest already, like Djokovic, Nadal, and Thiem. So it is a strong field, so cancelling it will be a big blow again. So I guess the organisers will have to find a way, but we can't do anything if the whole country or Paris will be into lockdown. And as fans, it will be a big blow specially coming from a successful French Open despite the pandemic.

It's not the whole country, it's only the biggest cities...
But as Kemarit said it will be very difficult to organize the event because everybody has to be at home at 9 PM.
So they must schedule the matches in the morning if they don't want to get problems with the players, the staff and the public.

2020 is going to be very bad year for specially sports as we lost some good number of events and still facing some serious problems due to this covid-19 which is not good but reality is on we cannot fight with nature we have to face this all until we have vaccine which is going to take some long time despite hard work from different countries and labs.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: btc_angela on October 16, 2020, 08:35:20 AM

Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

It will be unfortunate if Rolex Paris Masters will be cancelled as there are a lot of players in the top 10 who have showed interest already, like Djokovic, Nadal, and Thiem. So it is a strong field, so cancelling it will be a big blow again. So I guess the organisers will have to find a way, but we can't do anything if the whole country or Paris will be into lockdown. And as fans, it will be a big blow specially coming from a successful French Open despite the pandemic.

It's not the whole country, it's only the biggest cities...
But as Kemarit said it will be very difficult to organize the event because everybody has to be at home at 9 PM.
So they must schedule the matches in the morning if they don't want to get problems with the players, the staff and the public.

btc_angela

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Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

It will be unfortunate if Rolex Paris Masters will be cancelled as there are a lot of players in the top 10 who have showed interest already, like Djokovic, Nadal, and Thiem. So it is a strong field, so cancelling it will be a big blow again. So I guess the organisers will have to find a way, but we can't do anything if the whole country or Paris will be into lockdown. And as fans, it will be a big blow specially coming from a successful French Open despite the pandemic.

Kemarit

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Quote from: Yaunfitda on October 15, 2020, 05:40:59 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

I hope not, this is the only big tournaments in the calendar and after a successful French Open I do hope that the tennis federation will go with the Rolex Paris masters with the same precautions they did with the recent French Open. Otherwise we will have to wait again to see big names playing high level tennis. And this could reset some of the players attitude and mentality, we need continuity.

You can't compare organizing a big tournament Grand Slam tournaments are compare to lets say ATP Masters 500 or Masters 1000. And as @Saint-loup mentioned, there is a ongoing curfew, so it will make the schedule more difficult as it's hard to predict when the match are going to finished. What if the match finishes late beyond 9 pm?

So it will be hard for the organizers so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to cancel the tournament not just because of the big risk of the pandemic, but the difficulty of the adjustments and players and expectators might find this uncomfortable as well.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: Yaunfitda on October 15, 2020, 05:40:59 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

I hope not, this is the only big tournaments in the calendar and after a successful French Open I do hope that the tennis federation will go with the Rolex Paris masters with the same precautions they did with the recent French Open. Otherwise we will have to wait again to see big names playing high level tennis. And this could reset some of the players attitude and mentality, we need continuity.

I don't really understand how they will organize it because there is now a curfew in Paris at 9 p.m and events with more than 1000 spectators are forbidden.

Yaunfitda

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Quote from: vella85 on October 15, 2020, 05:02:50 PM

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

I hope not, this is the only big tournaments in the calendar and after a successful French Open I do hope that the tennis federation will go with the Rolex Paris masters with the same precautions they did with the recent French Open. Otherwise we will have to wait again to see big names playing high level tennis. And this could reset some of the players attitude and mentality, we need continuity.

vella85

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Activity: 1862

Merit: 590

I just checked the tennis ATP tour website and see a lot of upcoming tournaments have been suspended. We already knew that the Masters tournaments in China were cancelled months ago but now we are seeing some European Masters tournaments suspended. I think the big tournament the Rolex Paris Masters might be in danger of being cancelled now that Paris will be going into lockdown again due to the virus getting out of control.

What do you all think? will it go ahead or not? right now its looking like it won't.

casperBGD

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Quote from: Kemarit on October 15, 2020, 04:07:48 AM

There is this Sardinia Masters 250, known as Forte Village Sardegna Open, just saw the bet line is already open. Some tennis names in there, or at least trying to break into the rankings like, Casper Ruud, Fognini and Pablo Cuevas.

Ruud is playing Hanfmann, unfortunately he is behind, 2-6, 1-4 currently, I was about to bet on Ruud on him last night, good thing I change my mind because I'm not familiar with Hanfmann and it seems my hunch is correct that he could be upset here, still early, round of 16.

that is the main issue with less-known players, or almost all of them, there is no continuity, and they can easily lose in first rounds

there is as well tournament in Cologne and Zverev will play Verdasco today, if that were clay, i would maybe look for an upset, but as it is, i will leave it just to watch, Verdasco again in action, but do not think that he will stay long there, although kicked-out Andy in previous round re-convalescent match

nevertheless, it was a good opportunity to have two old guys in action, like a match from ten years ago

Kemarit

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There is this Sardinia Masters 250, known as Forte Village Sardegna Open, just saw the bet line is already open. Some tennis names in there, or at least trying to break into the rankings like, Casper Ruud, Fognini and Pablo Cuevas.

Ruud is playing Hanfmann, unfortunately he is behind, 2-6, 1-4 currently, I was about to bet on Ruud on him last night, good thing I change my mind because I'm not familiar with Hanfmann and it seems my hunch is correct that he could be upset here, still early, round of 16.

Crypto22265

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I see many people were surprised that Djokovic actually lost a set 6-0. That really shouldn't be a surprise as we are talking about Nadal here, who won 12(now 13) Roland Garros titles. Besides that Nadal already beat Djokovic 6-0 in the past, so there's not much excuse for Djokovic not being at his best. Nadal is just a beast on clay and in that match he proved it once again as he has done many times in the past.

vella85

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 14, 2020, 02:33:15 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 13, 2020, 05:13:13 PM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 12, 2020, 05:40:43 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 12, 2020, 05:09:40 PM

Quote from: Kemarit on October 11, 2020, 06:54:20 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 11, 2020, 04:40:35 PM

There is no doubt that Djokovic wasn't 100% losing this badly in a grand slam final. But we all know how dominant Nadal is at the French Open and now he equals Federer on 20 grand slam titles in the year 2020 as I suspected would happen. Nadal's record at the French Open is simply amazing only losing 2 times, this will never happen again well not in our lifetime. Congrats Nadal!

Exactly, but to Djokovic is really sports, he didn't make any excuses in his lost to Nadal. 6-0 first set? Damn, I can't remember what are the odds, was thinking of putting 6-3 beat on Nadal, luckily I didn't pull the trigger but just stay on the ML for Nadal, so just a couple of bucks winnings.

And in this modern era, we might not see that someone breaking that record, and it will continue no doubt about that and I would say that is one record that is going hard to break, or even get close to it. Djokovic though will remain at the #1 position.

The odds for Nadal winning the first set 6-0 would of been huge as no one would of expected this to happen even though Nadal is the king on the clay. Djokovic is the world number 1 for a reason and to see him lose this badly made him look like a player ranked outside the top 100 that's how good Nadal was on the day.

Yeah he still holds the number 1 rank and will most likely finish the year ranked number 1 as Djokovic is around 1400 points clear at the top ahead of Nadal. Maybe we will see Nadal drop and Thiem work his way up to second depending on what tournaments we see in the next 2 months. Well we know there will be no tennis played in China so we shall see as now the virus is getting out of control in Europe again.

In my opinion, Djokovic lost to Nadal in this year French open final doesnt by any chance make him feel or look like a player which was ranked outside the top 100 because Djokovic was not in good health condition to begin with and despite his health predicament he still make it to the final of the game which i believe even make him the champion even by not winning the final game.
Meanwhile, hes still leading by winning 29 games against Nadal while Nadal only won 27 in total.

I know, what I said was it made him look like Nadal was playing a player outside the top 100 with the score line. Yes I know Djokovic wasn't at 100% and it just showed how much strong he is to make the final just like we have seen in the past with Nadal. I'm in no way attacking Djokovic because if you go back through this thread you will see that I am a big supporter of his and still think that he can potentially be the most winning grand slam champion at the end of his carrer.

Missed all your previous posts about Djokovic but now I understand your viewpoint about the issue but it will be better if Djokovic health alignment was cure cause he's not getting younger and he may not have the strength to perform well in the next year open. However, i congratulate Nadal for making a remarkable record.

That's ok.

Lets just hope that Djokovic can get himself fit and healthy again ready for next year. He always plays well at the Australian Open and even though he just lost to Nadal he will be the one to beat at the Australian Open as long as he is 100% fit and healthy.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: vella85 on October 13, 2020, 05:13:13 PM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 12, 2020, 05:40:43 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 12, 2020, 05:09:40 PM

Quote from: Kemarit on October 11, 2020, 06:54:20 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 11, 2020, 04:40:35 PM

There is no doubt that Djokovic wasn't 100% losing this badly in a grand slam final. But we all know how dominant Nadal is at the French Open and now he equals Federer on 20 grand slam titles in the year 2020 as I suspected would happen. Nadal's record at the French Open is simply amazing only losing 2 times, this will never happen again well not in our lifetime. Congrats Nadal!

Exactly, but to Djokovic is really sports, he didn't make any excuses in his lost to Nadal. 6-0 first set? Damn, I can't remember what are the odds, was thinking of putting 6-3 beat on Nadal, luckily I didn't pull the trigger but just stay on the ML for Nadal, so just a couple of bucks winnings.

And in this modern era, we might not see that someone breaking that record, and it will continue no doubt about that and I would say that is one record that is going hard to break, or even get close to it. Djokovic though will remain at the #1 position.

The odds for Nadal winning the first set 6-0 would of been huge as no one would of expected this to happen even though Nadal is the king on the clay. Djokovic is the world number 1 for a reason and to see him lose this badly made him look like a player ranked outside the top 100 that's how good Nadal was on the day.

Yeah he still holds the number 1 rank and will most likely finish the year ranked number 1 as Djokovic is around 1400 points clear at the top ahead of Nadal. Maybe we will see Nadal drop and Thiem work his way up to second depending on what tournaments we see in the next 2 months. Well we know there will be no tennis played in China so we shall see as now the virus is getting out of control in Europe again.

In my opinion, Djokovic lost to Nadal in this year French open final doesnt by any chance make him feel or look like a player which was ranked outside the top 100 because Djokovic was not in good health condition to begin with and despite his health predicament he still make it to the final of the game which i believe even make him the champion even by not winning the final game.
Meanwhile, hes still leading by winning 29 games against Nadal while Nadal only won 27 in total.

I know, what I said was it made him look like Nadal was playing a player outside the top 100 with the score line. Yes I know Djokovic wasn't at 100% and it just showed how much strong he is to make the final just like we have seen in the past with Nadal. I'm in no way attacking Djokovic because if you go back through this thread you will see that I am a big supporter of his and still think that he can potentially be the most winning grand slam champion at the end of his carrer.

Missed all your previous posts about Djokovic but now I understand your viewpoint about the issue but it will be better if Djokovic health alignment was cure cause he's not getting younger and he may not have the strength to perform well in the next year open. However, i congratulate Nadal for making a remarkable record.

vella85

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 12, 2020, 05:40:43 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 12, 2020, 05:09:40 PM

Quote from: Kemarit on October 11, 2020, 06:54:20 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 11, 2020, 04:40:35 PM

There is no doubt that Djokovic wasn't 100% losing this badly in a grand slam final. But we all know how dominant Nadal is at the French Open and now he equals Federer on 20 grand slam titles in the year 2020 as I suspected would happen. Nadal's record at the French Open is simply amazing only losing 2 times, this will never happen again well not in our lifetime. Congrats Nadal!

Exactly, but to Djokovic is really sports, he didn't make any excuses in his lost to Nadal. 6-0 first set? Damn, I can't remember what are the odds, was thinking of putting 6-3 beat on Nadal, luckily I didn't pull the trigger but just stay on the ML for Nadal, so just a couple of bucks winnings.

And in this modern era, we might not see that someone breaking that record, and it will continue no doubt about that and I would say that is one record that is going hard to break, or even get close to it. Djokovic though will remain at the #1 position.

The odds for Nadal winning the first set 6-0 would of been huge as no one would of expected this to happen even though Nadal is the king on the clay. Djokovic is the world number 1 for a reason and to see him lose this badly made him look like a player ranked outside the top 100 that's how good Nadal was on the day.

Yeah he still holds the number 1 rank and will most likely finish the year ranked number 1 as Djokovic is around 1400 points clear at the top ahead of Nadal. Maybe we will see Nadal drop and Thiem work his way up to second depending on what tournaments we see in the next 2 months. Well we know there will be no tennis played in China so we shall see as now the virus is getting out of control in Europe again.

In my opinion, Djokovic lost to Nadal in this year French open final doesnt by any chance make him feel or look like a player which was ranked outside the top 100 because Djokovic was not in good health condition to begin with and despite his health predicament he still make it to the final of the game which i believe even make him the champion even by not winning the final game.
Meanwhile, hes still leading by winning 29 games against Nadal while Nadal only won 27 in total.

I know, what I said was it made him look like Nadal was playing a player outside the top 100 with the score line. Yes I know Djokovic wasn't at 100% and it just showed how much strong he is to make the final just like we have seen in the past with Nadal. I'm in no way attacking Djokovic because if you go back through this thread you will see that I am a big supporter of his and still think that he can potentially be the most winning grand slam champion at the end of his carrer.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: Cnut237 on October 13, 2020, 04:31:19 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 12, 2020, 05:40:43 PM

Djokovic was not in good health condition to begin with and despite his health predicament he still make it to the final of the game which i believe even make him the champion even by not winning the final game.

I don't believe this. Djokovic has a history whenever he starts getting into trouble of suffering from imaginary injuries. It already happened in this tournament against Carreno Busta.
I don't think making it to the final with imaginary injuries makes someone a champion; winning the final is what makes them the champion.

I am fully aware about his health status when he confronted Carreno Busta but you totally misunderstand what I mean when I said Djokovic is a winner even without him winning the final game and what I mean is that he proved to be competent of his number one ranking. Besides, he showed his love for the game is not limited because some tennis player with his health situation will definitely not make it to the final.
I respect that about him which is the reason why i consider him as a winner.

Cnut237

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Quote from: cryptofrka on October 11, 2020, 01:11:43 PM

Nadal's Roland Garros record is 100-2.

What to say? A true champion.

His record at the French is phenomenal and likely will never be equalled. Winning for 13 separate years is basically like winning every year for most players' whole careers.
But - although he dismantled Djokovic, it only looks inevitable in hindsight. Going into the final, Djokovic had won every match he'd played this year (ignoring the default at the US). The last time he played Nadal at the French (2015), Nadal lost. This combined with the Autumn conditions made it appear to be quite an even contest. Of course we know it didn't turn out that way in the end.

Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 12, 2020, 05:40:43 PM

Djokovic was not in good health condition to begin with and despite his health predicament he still make it to the final of the game which i believe even make him the champion even by not winning the final game.

I don't believe this. Djokovic has a history whenever he starts getting into trouble of suffering from imaginary injuries. It already happened in this tournament against Carreno Busta.
I don't think making it to the final with imaginary injuries makes someone a champion; winning the final is what makes them the champion.

efxes

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I love tennis and bet tennis a lot, I do pretty well at it sometimes, but this time I stupidly logged into Cloudbet using a USA IP from USA and they froze my deposits of $15,000 worth of bitcoin cash (67 BCH) and this was really tough for me.

I want to join you guys in this thread and leave tips and exchange information, I also have an account on tennisinsight.com where I make picks.

If you can please support me in getting my deposits back I made to Cloudbet when betting tennis, they froze my funds and are not returning the deposit. Please support me getting the deposits back by adding to the community flag on their account and also leaving negative trust.

you can read about it here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5277995.80

consider adding negative flag until cloudbet releases the $15,000 they have frozen due to me being a USA player (67BCH). I realize I broke terms of service, I really want my deposits back that I sent them (67BCH)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=154563

Thank you for your support and i look forward to picking tennis with you soon. It is my favorite hobby (I teach tennis , play tennis, and bet tennis, and tennis fan

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suzanne5223

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Quote from: vella85 on October 12, 2020, 05:09:40 PM

Quote from: Kemarit on October 11, 2020, 06:54:20 PM

Quote from: vella85 on October 11, 2020, 04:40:35 PM

There is no doubt that Djokovic wasn't 100% losing this badly in a grand slam final. But we all know how dominant Nadal is at the French Open and now he equals Federer on 20 grand slam titles in the year 2020 as I suspected would happen. Nadal's record at the French Open is simply amazing only losing 2 times, this will never happen again well not in our lifetime. Congrats Nadal!

Exactly, but to Djokovic is really sports, he didn't make any excuses in his lost to Nadal. 6-0 first set? Damn, I can't remember what are the odds, was thinking of putting 6-3 beat on Nadal, luckily I didn't pull the trigger but just stay on the ML for Nadal, so just a couple of bucks winnings.

And in this modern era, we might not see that someone breaking that record, and it will continue no doubt about that and I would say that is one record that is going hard to break, or even get close to it. Djokovic though will remain at the #1 position.

The odds for Nadal winning the first set 6-0 would of been huge as no one would of expected this to happen even though Nadal is the king on the clay. Djokovic is the world number 1 for a reason and to see him lose this badly made him look like a player ranked outside the top 100 that's how good Nadal was on the day.

Yeah he still holds the number 1 rank and will most likely finish the year ranked number 1 as Djokovic is around 1400 points clear at the top ahead of Nadal. Maybe we will see Nadal drop and Thiem work his way up to second depending on what tournaments we see in the next 2 months. Well we know there will be no tennis played in China so we shall see as now the virus is getting out of control in Europe again.

In my opinion, Djokovic lost to Nadal in this year French open final doesnt by any chance make him feel or look like a player which was ranked outside the top 100 because Djokovic was not in good health condition to begin with and despite his health predicament he still make it to the final of the game which i believe even make him the champion even by not winning the final game.
Meanwhile, hes still leading by winning 29 games against Nadal while Nadal only won 27 in total.

Topic: Tennis League All Thread - page 485. (Read 203514 times)