Topic: The difference between science and religion - page 13. (Read 6490 times)

Cooperative myths do indeed establish trust between strangers but such a process is self limited if the myths are false.

Cooperation forms a foundation that society builds itself upon. It allows for the unfolding of potential into higher orders of development. If the shared beliefs are false, that foundation will eventually fail and the society with it.

With increasing cooperation the power and understanding of a society grows progressively with time. Such understanding will explore and and expose any demonstrable untruths in the shared belief structure.

When this happens the common basis for cooperation fails and the society fragments and starts the process of collapse.

What is universe changing, however, is an inclusive paradigm that allows for genuine total and voluntary cooperation that cannot ever be falsified with progress. This is what is achieved by grounding ones foundation for cooperation in God.

God cannot be falsified, is entirely consistent with our knowledge of truth, and maximizes cooperation over time.

You are certainly free to reject God and attempt to ground your reality in some other faith. That is exactly what you have done with your embrace of nihilistic principles.

You can live your life as though your existence is simply chance.
You can deny any ultimate purpose to your existence.
You can even decide that you have no inherent value or worth.

In the long run, however, these are not viable beliefs. They have no future because they don't form the necessary foundation needed to sustain cooperation and hence life over time.

Ignorance is bliss.

The expansion (and the acceleration of thereof) of the younger universe has been observed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_expansion_of_the_universe

Science can prove things pretty close to 100%, in most cases at 100%.

Religion does not need to prove anything.  They just state all made up shit as they go along.  God is God, that is all they know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uqiv3tCghA

Re-read my post and think about it some more.

Christian myth is the same as the Flat Earther movement from the psychological point of view. Once you are part of the group with common beliefs you cling onto that belief no matter what, that is because most people (with lesser intelligence) do not want to be wrong.

You convince yourself that what you believe is true and when you see others in your group expressing their beliefs it validates your (false) belief.  Herd mentality and confirmation bias is at play here.

It is easier to abandon your false beliefs when you leave the group, and/or have good critical thinking skills.

PS. Most scientists love to be wrong, that is why you don't see too many scientists who believe in ancient myths.

If the trust has been established, it remains even though the myths are shown for what they are... myths. How much stronger is the trust among believers, when the Bible is proven to be truth and fact.

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

Many UFOlogists would immediately trust other UFOlogists.  Same goes for FlatEarthers, Christians or Muslims.

The lower the IQ of individuals in any given group, the easier it is to establish that common trust based on the underlying myth or belief.

In science everything is put in question.  The big bang theory functions in those models which are worked out to prove it. As long as sth functions several times a conclusion is made that it is true and proved by science. But it doesn't mean it's really true and later can be proved false. When the Earth was believed to be flat the science considered it to be flat.
Moreover, apart from science and religion one more way to experience the world is art - perception of reality by means of images.

You answered this question yourself you just don't realise it.


What does God have to do with cooperation. This is a challenging topic so I will start with the comments of miscreanity who commented on it earlier.


This relationship between God and cooperation is as fundamental as it is necessary. God breaks us free from ultimately self-destructive conflict and enables ever higher orders of cooperative synergy. The more we bring ourselves into alignment with God the greater the levels of cooperation that become possible.

I discussed this point in some detail here:
See: Superrationality and the Infinite

....

That makes zero sense, if you think it over. Outside of our own universe has no meaning.

 I don't think it's necessary to posit a means by which the initial expansion of our universe occurred. That is not needed to support the hypothesis of the Big Bang.

That is dumb. No intelligent being would design a system this way.

All the killing and torture is unnecessary. He is like a small child, unsure of himself because he needs people to worship him?

Why would he create life in the first place? What would be the purpose?  To worship him?  He could have created some fans where ever he resides and be done with it. 

Why going through the trouble of the big bang, billions years of evolution, star formation, expanding universe, supernovas, evolution from simple bacteria to humans etc.  That just does not add up.  It is just too complicated story for the creation of an obedient, one specie of primates, on an insignificant planet, in billions of solar systems, in a galaxy, among billions of other galaxies. 

You do know that the Earth is spinning on its axis, as it goes around the Sun, as do other planets.  You do understand that the solar system itself is travelling at 230 km/s through space, around the center of our galaxy.  Our Milky Way is also moving through space at about 580 km/s.

The whole system is just overly complicated if the primary purpose of the creation was a specific member of the Ape family to worship and believe in the creator. You would have to be an idiot to design something like this if you just wanted obedient primates who would believe in you.

If I was God, I would just create everything all at once, 6000 years ago, on flat Earth, with glass dome over it, place it in the center of the universe and be done with it.

BTW, you know that immortality is physically impossible, don't you?

So the question to you is:  Is your God an idiot or a deranged psychopath who would go to extra length to satisfy his emotional needs?

PS.
He definitely does not know much about Physics or Biology to create such a mess.

We cannot collect the evidence outside of our universe.  However, quantum fluctuations could have jump started our initial inflation.

There is more evidence that it is than that it is not.


We are as special as other mammals, fish or any other living organism.
All life is special.  We are different in one respect.  We are good at story telling (myths, religious dogmas etc).
Myths is what united us early on in our human history and allowed for greater cooperation between large hordes of
hunters and gatherers. That is the only reason why we are at the top of the food chain.  Cooperation and socialization.


Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.

Actually you have it backwards what I am doing it's much more akin to trying to talk a 30 year smoker into quitting.
I would point to the 20+ studies I have highlighted over the last few years in the Health and Religion thread to back that up.

We agree on a lot of your points but not the assumptions at the heart of your "faith".

I agree that nature tries things via processes called evolution and emergence.
I agree that Earth is one planet in a universe of countless other planets and their are likely many others very similar to it.
I agree that the the prospects of a long term future for homo sapien biological life appear quite grim.

But I am not a believer in your nihilistic faith so we part ways when you go into those core doctrines.

You cannot prove our the existence of our universe is a pure lottery this is doctrine.
You cannot prove the fact that we are here is pure chance. This is faith.
You cannot prove that we are not valuable or special this is a part of your nihilistic religion.
 
All differences aside, however, we do agree on one final point.

We agree that:
Things that work, continue to work, and things that have some impediment, get destroyed and die.

Unfortunately I appear to lack the necessary eloquence to show you that faith in God is the most important of the "Things that work".

Are you sure?  I thought he loves people.  Why is he purposely killing us?  Is he a sadistic maniac?

Does the flesh eating bacteria also eats his flesh? You know, since we are created in his image and all.

There is a saying that we as humans should just judge things we saw, felt, heard, smelled or so.
So who has ever saw god, who has ever heard god nobody right? The same things can be said about our big bang, nobody saw it...

In the end no one can ever proof things to 100% we either have faith in something we call god or we believe in the big bang and the whole precess behind it.

Science is based on discovering and proving, religion is based on believing - there're no proofs there and it doesn't need them.

Genesis.

All scriptures are preoccupied with obedience and a special purpose of man.
 

Not really.  Life was not created. Our universe, our chemistry and physics are pure lottery.  Nature tries things via processes called evolution and emergence.

How our solar system, Earth, and life on it came about is by pure lottery, trial and error.  
Things that work, continue to work, things that have some impediment, get destroyed and/or die.

Both of us might be breathing the oxygen atoms that Julius Cesar or Hitler breathed.  That coffee or tea you had this morning might have water molecules that went through Napoleon's kidney and urine.  The atoms in your body were created in some supernova somewhere, they will be returned to Sun and then end up in the universe somewhere once Sun explodes.

The fact that we are here is also pure chance.  We could have been wiped out by asteroid or nuclear war, and cockroaches could have become the dominant species.

Homo Sapiens are not special.  Do not fool yourself into thinking that.  Earth is not our planet.  It belongs to the universe, like countless other planets.

The way we are evolving, AI will replace us in few hundred years.  Universe will continue for another 20 billion years or so, then it will probably suffer a crunch and another big bang will result, with different physics and chemistry, maybe even different space time equivalent.

LOL.  It is like offering a pack of cigarettes to someone who quit smoking 30 years ago.  No thanks.

Who said anything about obedient primates being the primary purpose of creation?


This is a very deep question and it goes far beyond the scope of this thread.

If you have a genuine interest in this topic the best answer I have come across is the following book.

Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

It is an older classic 18th century religious book. It is very logical and is set out in parts that are divided into a few chapters. The parts are:
1. Fundamentals, covering The Creator, Man, Human Responsibility.
2. How Providence Works.
3. The Soul, Inspiration and Prophecy,.
4. Serving God, Love and Fear of God, Prayer.

There is a class in Seattle that went through this book chapter by chapter taught by Mark Spiro. Audio recordings of that class are available for free here.

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html

Both Moshe Chaim Luzzatto and Mark Spiro approach the issue from the Jewish tradition but I think anyone interested in God or religion will find it worthwhile. I did and I am not Jewish.

You are still here?

Did God create the flesh eating bacteria? Yes or no?

I bet you will dodge to answer this question.

He does. That is why he is saving us inspite of ourselves.

Everybody dies. That is inevitable. The only variable is exactly how that death occurs.

The only offer of life after death on the table is through God and it requires an act of faith.

God created everything including bacteria. He also created something far more evil then bacteria.

God created mankind the only creation on Earth that purposefully and freely chooses evil with full knowledge of his actions.

God created a mankind so morally warped that many individuals choose deny evil actually exists or ignore it in favor of expediency.

Why does God tolerate the most fallen of his creations to exist? Why does he not snuff us all out like you want to do to your bacteria? Perhaps it's because we can grow and with time and effort rectify ourselves.

Here is a song for you. It's about a cruel God that lets three innocent people die in a horrible car wreck. Or something like that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8lCapcqwM