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Topic: The Holy Grail! I wish I could kiss the author of Bitmessage on his face. - page 8. (Read 92719 times)

sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.

BTW, I like your proposal and I think you should code it.

However, in the case of OT, the servers are not failure points. If the users broadcast a discovery for a certain server and it doesn't work, then they can just use a different one instead. Federated.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.

why not just design a program that could scan the blockchain of bitmessage for buy and sell offers that match specific syntax and aggregate and display that data in a way that is easy for users to interpret. Then have built into the program tools that could be used to easily arrange for the creation of a risk fund (explained here http://nashx.com/about) by way of a multisignature transaction on the bitcoin blockchain. this way you can safely make transactions person to person with people you dont know ANYTHING about with out the need for any help from any third parties (unlike with the chaum bank provider)

You could even design algorithms to extract up to date prices for each market from the bitmessage blockchain.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Unfortunately, this is not closer to the singularity, but farther away from it than Ripple. Why would we go to offchain transactions with more moving parts when we have a far superior fully integrated platform? Ripple does more than just solve the "multiple currency" transaction problem - it provides a more efficient validation and confirmation ledger platform. Mining is unnecessary and inefficient in the long run. We will see higher and higher transaction fees as Bitcoin adoption increases if the block size does not increase. With so many systems and so many moving parts and bottlenecks, a Bitmessage/Open Transaction/Bitcoin build appears inferior from a Universal standpoint to an integrated Ripple platform. 

I'm so happy to hear that ripple has everything baked right in.  Could you point me to the APIs for issuance and management of blinded cash tokens?  I seem to have missed them somehow...

Of course we should all use Ripple. What could be the possible downside to using a system of debt with a closed source and where the actual 'ripples' carry value in themselves and are all pre-produced to the tune of 100 BILLION and handed out to developers and company owners so that they can sell them and get rich..

Oh wait, did I just answer my own question?
hero member
Activity: 726
Merit: 500
Unfortunately, this is not closer to the singularity, but farther away from it than Ripple. Why would we go to offchain transactions with more moving parts when we have a far superior fully integrated platform? Ripple does more than just solve the "multiple currency" transaction problem - it provides a more efficient validation and confirmation ledger platform. Mining is unnecessary and inefficient in the long run. We will see higher and higher transaction fees as Bitcoin adoption increases if the block size does not increase. With so many systems and so many moving parts and bottlenecks, a Bitmessage/Open Transaction/Bitcoin build appears inferior from a Universal standpoint to an integrated Ripple platform. 

I'm so happy to hear that ripple has everything baked right in.  Could you point me to the APIs for issuance and management of blinded cash tokens?  I seem to have missed them somehow...
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
what does bitmessage do that i2p and freenet cant do?

Please read how I am using bitmessage, in the OP (see pastebins), and tell me exactly how to do those same things in i2p and freenet. I would like to know.

Also FYI the whole idea is that bitmessage could easily be swapped out for other discovery layers.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
what does bitmessage do that i2p and freenet cant do?
member
Activity: 90
Merit: 10
Only to comment about a new post  to focus in a peer to peer courier network:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=166420.new#new

all the people interested are welcome!
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
hero member
Activity: 544
Merit: 500
Datz, I answered your post in the appropriate thread. If you could transfer the discussion to that thread I'd appreciate. Thanks.

+1  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
Datz, I answered your post in the appropriate thread. If you could transfer the discussion to that thread I'd appreciate. Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
Unfortunately, this is not closer to the singularity, but farther away from it than Ripple. Why would we go to offchain transactions with more moving parts when we have a far superior fully integrated platform? Ripple does more than just solve the "multiple currency" transaction problem - it provides a more efficient validation and confirmation ledger platform. Mining is unnecessary and inefficient in the long run. We will see higher and higher transaction fees as Bitcoin adoption increases if the block size does not increase. With so many systems and so many moving parts and bottlenecks, a Bitmessage/Open Transaction/Bitcoin build appears inferior from a Universal standpoint to an integrated Ripple platform. 

Thanks for the info about Ripple. I am interested in learning more about it, just not here.

Two points:

1 - You are making Ripple sound like a replacement for BTC when the designers say it is a compliment to it. Seems like BTC is doing well and with so many XRP's out there and the owners owning a ton, I don't see value in that.
2 - Could you answer this in a Ripple thread since this thread is about Bitmessage. This is really annoying from the Ripple guys, always jumping in BTC threads. If all the cryptocurrency guys did that, this place would be a big mess.

Thx,
IAS
sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250
"to survive, we must live and fly"
Perhaps, but I'm still not 100% convinced. For example, what's the answer to this question?

The forkers would be ignored and cut out.

Since every validation must be signed, it is blatantly apparent who is lying.

Liars or forkers are automatically detected and if they lie enough to meet a threshold can be automatically cut out of the network.

It is all reputation based - so if I have a reputation as a good validator people will choose to trust my node as a validator. This is how the Ripple protocol differs from the Bitcoin protocol.

With the Bitcoin protocol, any third party can mine on the network and exert control. Blocks must be confirmed by miners - thus miners and computational resources are always necessary for Bitcoin to properly function and must always be incentivized. Spamming the block chain is always an option without proper disincentives which inconvenience transactions and defeat the purpose of crypto-currencies even though they may still be better than alternatives.

With Ripple, the main members of the network may choose to accept or ignore validators. Ripple includes a framework for automatically detecting nodes going against the consensus. In the early stages, most validators have vested interests in Ripple's success. Thus, Ripple allows for fewer validators, less computational power, and decentralization/distribution. Imagine taking out all of the spammers, "dust bunnies," and bad guys from the Bitcoin protocol and eliminating mining. How much more efficient a protocol would it be? Even if 80% of validators that somehow managed to gain trust decided to fork Ripple dishonestly the major exchanges, institutions, and people who matter in commerce would cut them out immediately and would never trust them again as validators based on their signatures. The same cannot be said about Bitcoin.

What's more is that Bitcoin cannot change it's core without becoming an entirely different protocol. Building layers on Bitcoin may alleviate load on the block chain, but after the deflationary period this will only result in less fees for miners and less computational power, making Bitcoin vulnerable to the 51% attack as mining for bitcoin creation becomes less profitable. Maintaining the block size as adoption increases will result in higher fees in order to increase incentives for additional computational power in the network to confirm transactions. If we increase the size of blocks we move toward centralization and encounter some of the same problems. Even then, we still face transaction size limits in order to reduce spam. Imagine clients not paying a transaction fee and building up thousands of fee-less blocks which may take forever to be confirmed by miners since fee-less blocks do not pay. Even if Moore's law results in better connectivity and speed, we are still wasting all this electricity and processing power on mining just to prevent the 51% attack. Ripple helps solve these problems and is a happy medium.  

I would rather embrace a distributed, technically unified protocol that will transition from centralized to decentralized than a fragmented, bottlenecked protocol which will transition from decentralized to centralized. Ripple keeps things simple and allows for more functionality in one decentralized API.

Quote
It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.
-Albert Einstein
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
Ripple does more than just solve the "multiple currency" transaction problem - it provides a more efficient validation and confirmation ledger platform. Mining is unnecessary and inefficient in the long run.

Perhaps, but I'm still not 100% convinced. For example, what's the answer to this question?

We will see higher and higher transaction fees as Bitcoin adoption increases if the block size does not increase.

I agree with that. And that's why the block size limit has to be lifted. Even if it implies a chaotic hard-fork due to the stubborn ones who want to cripple Bitcoin.... so be it. The majority will prefer the scalable and affordable Bitcoin, not the SWITF2.0 one.
sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250
"to survive, we must live and fly"
My family has been building houses and shopping centers for many generations. If we reexamined a foundation we had poured, a foundation we had put blood and sweat and tears into, and that foundation was flawed, we repoured. While it is tempting to continue to build on that flawed foundation, perhaps add some arches and redistribute the weight of the house horizontally, the building would eventually fail. I tell you what, our houses and buildings have withstood the test of time. Don't let crypto-currencies die by building on a flawed foundation and ruining the reputation of crypto-currency. Break up the concrete, recycle that concrete, and transfer that value of the concrete and the experience to a new foundation.

Go for it, rebuild bitcoin from the ground up. It is an open source protocol operating in a free market ... just no need to spam a whole lot of nonsense on this thread .... go and start breaking concrete, get back to us when you have built your new mall we should all be shopping in (XRP only accepted I suspect).

Appreciate the support, but the mall is already built.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
My family has been building houses and shopping centers for many generations. If we reexamined a foundation we had poured, a foundation we had put blood and sweat and tears into, and that foundation was flawed, we repoured. While it is tempting to continue to build on that flawed foundation, perhaps add some arches and redistribute the weight of the house horizontally, the building would eventually fail. I tell you what, our houses and buildings have withstood the test of time. Don't let crypto-currencies die by building on a flawed foundation and ruining the reputation of crypto-currency. Break up the concrete, recycle that concrete, and transfer that value of the concrete and the experience to a new foundation.

Go for it, rebuild bitcoin from the ground up. It is an open source protocol operating in a free market ... just no need to spam a whole lot of nonsense on this thread .... go and start breaking concrete, get back to us when you have built your new mall we should all be shopping in (XRP only accepted I suspect).
sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250
"to survive, we must live and fly"
Sorry Datz, the bullshit about your family's blood, sweat, and tears and foundations and all that... didn't do it for me.

I know you were going for the whole "emotional persuasion" job but it did not bring tears to my eyes.

Actually I was not going for ethos or pathos here, but logos. Logically, I would not build on a fundamentally flawed structure, no matter how much work I had put into it, no matter how much I was emotionally invested in it.

I love how you talk about bitcoin's scalability as if what you're saying is self-evident and no one has ever discussed scalability issues before, or that everyone has accepted that it is not scalable. This couldn't be further from the truth.  I hope that lots of silly newbies read your post and believe what you say about Bitcoin's scalability, so that in the future they will eventually be corrected and will learn a thing or two about critical thinking. You are doing good in the world without even realizing it!

Scalability of the Bitcoin protocol is an issue. This is why we have implemented transaction minimums in client updates in response to Satoshi's dice and transaction fees. The Bitcoin protocol can only handle so many transactions per second and requires inefficient mining to facilitate transactions which opens up a vulnerability unto itself. This is why we have posts advocating "off chain" transactions. Any third party can buy 51% of the computational power and wreak havoc. Bitcoin requires a balance of opposing forces and may easily break under the right stress or the right conditions. There is always a tradeoff.

However, let's NOT let this turn into a RIPPLE VS BITCOIN thread (you started it Grin). Take your propaganda  elsewhere Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy (and yes, it reads exactly like propaganda, cut out the blood sweat and tears hard working brick and mortar strong foundation bullshit, it sounds like you're speaking on a political commercial targeted to a group of 50-75 year old American men in the steelworker's union)

Contributors mentioned Ripple and the death of Ripple over ten times on this thread. I did not start this line of thought. I am talking to every bitcoiner and miner who is emotionally attached to the protocol.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Sorry Datz, the bullshit about your family's blood, sweat, and tears and foundations and all that... didn't do it for me.

I know you were going for the whole "emotional persuasion" job but it did not bring tears to my eyes.

I love how you talk about bitcoin's scalability as if what you're saying is self-evident and no one has ever discussed scalability issues before, or that everyone has accepted that it is not scalable. This couldn't be further from the truth.  I hope that lots of silly newbies read your post and believe what you say about Bitcoin's scalability, so that in the future they will eventually be corrected and will learn a thing or two about critical thinking. You are doing good in the world without even realizing it!

Scalability will be a piece of cake with Bitcoin. Sure, the protocol isn't anywhere near perfect right now, and there are still some projects to be finished before we're there (blockchain pruning, fully validating lite node that requires 0 trust and 0 centralization, etc) but these are all concepts that have been fleshed out and just need more "blood sweat and tears" dev time just like your family building those shopping centers. This is software in beta testing. We are STILL building the foundation, of a type of structure that has never been built before in the history of mankind, a technological and engineering marvel. Ripple? Ripple might have a few problems sorted out but they are not even anywhere close to decentralized, not open source; I won't even consider glancing at Ripple until it is both! LR just had millions of dollars of client funds seized. Some of them ML and nefarious criminals, but some honest folks. Ripple could be shut down and all client funds seized, in its current state. Let's not pretend we're comparing anything even remotely similar.

However, let's NOT let this turn into a RIPPLE VS BITCOIN thread (you started it Grin). Take your propaganda  elsewhere Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy (and yes, it reads exactly like propaganda, cut out the blood sweat and tears hard working brick and mortar strong foundation bullshit, it sounds like you're speaking on a political commercial targeted to a group of 50-75 year old American men in the steelworker's union)
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Mining is unnecessary and inefficient in the long run.

Oh yeah, sure. The traditional banking industry did splendidly without mining.
Thus mining is unnecessary. Just trust your favourite banker, or payment network company.
If in doubt, use a legal system to enforce the trust.
Simple and sweet.


sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250
"to survive, we must live and fly"
My family has been building houses and shopping centers for many generations. If we reexamined a foundation we had poured, a foundation we had put blood and sweat and tears into, and that foundation was flawed, we repoured. While it is tempting to continue to build on that flawed foundation, perhaps add some arches and redistribute the weight of the house horizontally, the building would eventually fail. I tell you what, our houses and buildings have withstood the test of time. Don't let crypto-currencies die by building on a flawed foundation and ruining the reputation of crypto-currency. Break up the concrete, recycle that concrete, and transfer that value of the concrete and the experience to a new foundation.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Lol yea bitmessage is cool
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