The Lightning Network FAQ - page 65.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on May 31, 2020, 06:18:57 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2020, 11:48:26 PM

How long, do you believe, until the time that Lightning has an auto-balance channel application, and an easier general UX, for ordinary users? 5 years?

One that works smoothly and semi automatically? 3 to 5 years, depending on how much money they throw at it.

But on current budget, and pace? I initially said five years, but I reduced it to two after Carlton made me believe that it might be an over-estimation.

Plus why is Blockstream supporting a Bitcoin IOU in Liquid, instead of the comparatively more trustless Lightning Network?

DaveF

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Technically Linux is only a kernel and there are many Desktop Environment (DE) and Window Manager (WM) available for OS based on Linux.

Personally i prefer Mac and Linux (Cinnamon, KDE & GNOME) over Windows UI/UX.

I am neutral on the Mac OS / GUI there are some things it does very well and others that I feel are a complete trainwreck.
But, the Linux GUIs are still a mess IMO. And think about what you posted (Cinnamon, KDE & GNOME) if all the time / effort / r&d had gone into 1 desktop environment it would probably be a single much better one.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2020, 11:48:26 PM

How long, do you believe, until the time that Lightning has an auto-balance channel application, and an easier general UX, for ordinary users? 5 years?

One that works smoothly and semi automatically? 3 to 5 years, depending on how much money they throw at it.
For now there are standards that still don't work depending on what wallet you have. So many projects start fast and then slow to a crawl. Might just be a lot of back end work that we are not seeing / the developers did not anticipate. But without updates, we just don't know.

-Dave

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on May 30, 2020, 07:52:25 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2020, 02:08:21 AM

Quote

Besides, it doesn't make sense to mention proprietary counterparts, unless the project is started by company or the contributor mainly consists of people worked at specific company which also use the project on their company.

Compare Linux, Windows, Mac GUI/UX development.

Some of that can be traced back to "management".

With the elimination of of you like the Windows / Mac / *nix GUI.

Some of the big differences can be traced back to the fact that a lot of times within the Mac / Windows world there are people in charge of the look and feel, there are different people running the coding and how it works, and there are usability testers there are tons of focus groups about what does work and what does not. Now, they do not always get it right. But they do have a better track record then the *nix GUI people.

On the Linux / BSD side for years I was a terminal window only kind of guy, then I started using the GUI just because it was a bit simpler to do some tasks. But some things are still so badly put together it makes me cringe. On the Windows side, since 2000 the GUI has just worked better and smoother and still does. Gnome 3 is getting there but still years behind.

Now, there are some glaring screw ups on big company GUI stuff too, not going to ignore it and some of then are truly epic. [Quick undo button next to the quick save in Visio and other MSFT applications comes to mind]

Now, for the programming on the back end. That is a different discussion.

Stay safe.

-Dave

How long, do you believe, until the time that Lightning has an auto-balance channel application, and an easier general UX, for ordinary users? 5 years?

DaveF

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2020, 02:08:21 AM

Quote

Besides, it doesn't make sense to mention proprietary counterparts, unless the project is started by company or the contributor mainly consists of people worked at specific company which also use the project on their company.

Compare Linux, Windows, Mac GUI/UX development.

Some of that can be traced back to "management".

With the elimination of of you like the Windows / Mac / *nix GUI.

Some of the big differences can be traced back to the fact that a lot of times within the Mac / Windows world there are people in charge of the look and feel, there are different people running the coding and how it works, and there are usability testers there are tons of focus groups about what does work and what does not. Now, they do not always get it right. But they do have a better track record then the *nix GUI people.

On the Linux / BSD side for years I was a terminal window only kind of guy, then I started using the GUI just because it was a bit simpler to do some tasks. But some things are still so badly put together it makes me cringe. On the Windows side, since 2000 the GUI has just worked better and smoother and still does. Gnome 3 is getting there but still years behind.

Now, there are some glaring screw ups on big company GUI stuff too, not going to ignore it and some of then are truly epic. [Quick undo button next to the quick save in Visio and other MSFT applications comes to mind]

Now, for the programming on the back end. That is a different discussion.

Stay safe.

-Dave

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 28, 2020, 04:00:39 AM

It's an assumption based on how other open source projects are inclined to take a longer time to improve UX than their proprietory counterparts.

That's poor assumption, it depends on :
1. Whether the project focus on getting things work correctly or split the focus
2. How many contributor willing to improve the UX
3. Contributor experience about UX development

Would it be a poor assumption if it was pointed directly at Lightning Network development?

Open source projects have contributors, not paid employees. For the development of a better UX, GUI, ease of use, it takes longer because most open source developers code in their free time.

Quote

Besides, it doesn't make sense to mention proprietary counterparts, unless the project is started by company or the contributor mainly consists of people worked at specific company which also use the project on their company.

Compare Linux, Windows, Mac GUI/UX development.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on May 27, 2020, 07:36:27 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 27, 2020, 04:42:33 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 26, 2020, 10:44:55 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 02:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

I believe that would be five years away, or more.

why would you make such an assumption, do you have any reason to believe it?

OK, maybe I was over-dramatic. Maybe two years, but I'm not optimistic.

It's an assumption based on how other open source projects are inclined to take a longer time to improve UX than their proprietory counterparts.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 27, 2020, 04:42:33 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 26, 2020, 10:44:55 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 02:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

I believe that would be five years away, or more.

why would you make such an assumption, do you have any reason to believe it?

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 26, 2020, 10:44:55 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 02:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

I believe that would be five years away, or more.

Quote

It's why I believe being a liquidity provider in Lightning should be made financially justifiable to maintain the node

.

That's an open market: it's already being sold as a service. Just like some custodial wallets ask a fee for deposits. I like BlueWallet because they don't ask that, but they're advertising other exchanges to earn revenue. Lightning Roulette charges 4% fee to convert on-chain Bitcoin to LN.

No, I meant the community of independent node operators/hobbyists, staking their own capital to provide easier routing/liquidity in LN in exchanges for fees.

LoyceV

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 02:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

Quote

It's why I believe being a liquidity provider in Lightning should be made financially justifiable to maintain the node.

That's an open market: it's already being sold as a service. Just like some custodial wallets ask a fee for deposits. I like BlueWallet because they don't ask that, but they're advertising other exchanges to earn revenue. Lightning Roulette charges 4% fee to convert on-chain Bitcoin to LN.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on May 25, 2020, 09:31:20 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 25, 2020, 03:38:29 AM

Quote from: DaveF on May 24, 2020, 06:50:09 AM

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet?

Compared to opening my own channels, a custodial wallet is:

easier to use
cheaper to fund
better connected
easier to empty

And for small amounts, I don't mind trusting a custodial wallet.

It's going to be interesting once big exchanges start accepting LN transactions, people trust them with large amounts already.

easier to use --> Yes.

cheaper to fund / better connected --> Tough to say, I can put BTC.1 into a channel between my node and a larger peer (say ln.pizza) and then BTC.01 into a smaller one and be done. Never had any real issues spending / receiving except those that did turn out to be caused by me in the end. Not saying there were no issues, just that they all turned out to be "Dave can't read or follow directions" issues. But yeah, funding bluewallet and being done is probably easier.

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

It's why I believe being a liquidity provider in Lightning should be made financially justifiable to maintain the node.

LoyceV

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Quote from: DaveF on May 25, 2020, 09:31:20 AM

cheaper to fund / better connected --> Tough to say, I can put BTC.1 into a channel between my node and a larger peer (say ln.pizza) and then BTC.01 into a smaller one and be done. Never had any real issues spending / receiving except those that did turn out to be caused by me in the end. Not saying there were no issues, just that they all turned out to be "Dave can't read or follow directions" issues. But yeah, funding bluewallet and being done is probably easier.

I haven't installed my own node yet, but was comparing my experiences between BlueWallet and Eclair. And I was thinking about much lower values than 0.1 BTC. In BlueWallet, I can fund it with a low transaction fee. When I tried that in Eclair, it didn't confirm fast enough and only confirmed once the channel closed and basically did CPFP with a much higher fee. A full node probably gives more control, but Eclair felt like I have no idea what's happening with fees.

Quote

Just my view. For a newbie it's probably easier. But, Loyce I have seen the work you do scraping data and putting stuff together it's amazing. You are manipulating a ton of data and have a ton of programming behind it. Don't tell me you can't have a Raspiblitz or mynodebtc server up and running in less then an hour. (Not counting sync time)

I can probably get it to work, but never tried. I'd do it if I have a use for it other than paying tiny LN transactions.

DaveF

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 25, 2020, 03:38:29 AM

Quote from: DaveF on May 24, 2020, 06:50:09 AM

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet?

Compared to opening my own channels, a custodial wallet is:

easier to use
cheaper to fund
better connected
easier to empty

And for small amounts, I don't mind trusting a custodial wallet.

It's going to be interesting once big exchanges start accepting LN transactions, people trust them with large amounts already.

easier to use --> Yes.

cheaper to fund / better connected --> Tough to say, I can put BTC.1 into a channel between my node and a larger peer (say ln.pizza) and then BTC.01 into a smaller one and be done. Never had any real issues spending / receiving except those that did turn out to be caused by me in the end. Not saying there were no issues, just that they all turned out to be "Dave can't read or follow directions" issues. But yeah, funding bluewallet and being done is probably easier.

easier to empty --> I use Ride the Lightning so it's just a click on a webpage.

Just my view. For a newbie it's probably easier. But, Loyce I have seen the work you do scraping data and putting stuff together it's amazing. You are manipulating a ton of data and have a ton of programming behind it. Don't tell me you can't have a Raspiblitz or mynodebtc server up and running in less then an hour. (Not counting sync time)

Stay safe.

-Dave

LoyceV

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Quote from: DaveF on May 24, 2020, 06:50:09 AM

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet?

Compared to opening my own channels, a custodial wallet is:

easier to use
cheaper to fund
better connected
easier to empty

And for small amounts, I don't mind trusting a custodial wallet.

It's going to be interesting once big exchanges start accepting LN transactions, people trust them with large amounts already.

Chlotide

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It's not only about the merchant but also the consumer.
Companies want profit and pioneering is lower on the list. If your potential buyer is not that LN savvy might not be the right time to implement it I assume.
Most need serious market research before they can pitch LN to the board/investors. That's what you get when you have some stubborn old farts with serious equity in the company.

DaveF

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 24, 2020, 12:52:17 AM

For those 1/2/3 sats/byte transactions waiting for DAYS in the mempool. If they were in Lightning, formed like an "organized mempool" waiting to be confirmed back onchain, they would be going back and forth instantly, possibly for lower fees. Why are merchants so slow in adopting it?

https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#0,24h

Old question, same answer :
1. There aren't many payment processor/gateway which accept LN
2. There aren't many wallet which support LN, personally i doubt custodial or web wallet will support LN at all
3. Trade-off between convenience or full-control when choosing LN wallet

1) True. But there are more then there used to be. Off the top of my head there is
a) BTCPay
b) coingate
c) zap

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet? But they are out there.
a) Wallet of Satoshi
b) bluewallet

3) Would also add technical knowledge. We as a group are still introducing people to bitcoin. Now we have to explain lightning.

Stay safe.
-Dave

Wind_FURY

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For those 1/2/3 sats/byte transactions waiting for DAYS in the mempool. If they were in Lightning, formed like an "organized mempool" waiting to be confirmed back onchain, they would be going back and forth instantly, possibly for lower fees. Why are merchants so slow in adopting it?

https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#0,24h

darosior

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Quote from: jackg on May 03, 2020, 01:10:21 PM

Yes, the idea with the lightning network originally was that there were essentially 2 layers of nodes... The first layer deals with how to find people and routing information and the second deals with participating in the network (sending and receiving nodes but not necessarily routing).

Yep I'm aware, but I still don't understand the relation with being "more anonymous"?.. The only part of added privacy I can think of is your direct peer not knowing the full amount you want to transfer

Quote from: jackg on May 03, 2020, 01:10:21 PM

Since acinq at least used to have the longest running nodes and were the main developers I was trying to work out if there's a way to disable funds going through any main servers (even though we can probably trust the developers of the ln, no device is completely secure and if you want to be fairly anonymous)...

Why would you not want the ACINQ node to be in your route ? If they aren't the first node they don't know you are part of it ..

In addition, regarding your sentence about trust in ln developers : you don't need to trust anyone in the network with your funds. Just the open source software you are running.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on May 03, 2020, 08:26:01 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 03, 2020, 05:12:50 AM

Hypothetical question. If I provide larger channel capacity in LN , but with moderately higher fees required, would you choose to pay my fee to complete payment "in a single shot"? Asking for a friend.

I am with darosior on this. Not going to pay higher fees for anything I can avoid.

With that being said, I am running two of my own lightning nodes so I may not be the best person to ask. Which, is my next point. Asking people in this thread may not be the best place to ask, because you are going to get the answer from a bunch of people who may or may not run their own node, but who do understand or are trying to understand the LN and will probably not want to pay more fees for very little benefit, and you would loose a bit of privacy (what jackg said).

Stay safe.

-Dave

For personal use, I believe you're right. For merchants to handle high-volume of transactions, I believe high-liquidity/higher-fee channels will be the right choice. They shouldn't let the customer wait.

jackg

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https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

Quote from: darosior on May 03, 2020, 12:55:16 PM

Quote from: jackg on May 03, 2020, 07:58:48 AM

is there a way to disable it if you wanted to be more anonymous?

To disable what ? MPP ? To be more anonymous how ?

Yes, the idea with the lightning network originally was that there were essentially 2 layers of nodes... The first layer deals with how to find people and routing information and the second deals with participating in the network (sending and receiving nodes but not necessarily routing).

Since acinq at least used to have the longest running nodes and were the main developers I was trying to work out if there's a way to disable funds going through any main servers (even though we can probably trust the developers of the ln, no device is completely secure and if you want to be fairly anonymous)...

darosior

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Quote from: jackg on May 03, 2020, 07:58:48 AM

is there a way to disable it if you wanted to be more anonymous?

To disable what ? MPP ? To be more anonymous how ?

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 65. (Read 33714 times)