The Lightning Network FAQ - page 63.

OmegaStarScream

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Quote from: DaveF on June 04, 2020, 07:41:28 AM

Are there any altcoin exchanges that use Lightning? Over the years I have accumulated a little of this and a little of that and while cleaning up my old wallet server I found a few coins that are still very alive. But what I have is only worth a dollar or 2. Withdraw fees are going to hurt. Last time I did a cleanup like this I converted to doge. I can do that again but I figured there might be some that I could convert to lightning. But, a very quick search found none.

You also have FixedFloat (405 DOGE is the minimum amount to exchange). There are a few others like ZigZag and boltz but they support LTC only.

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Quote from: LoyceV on June 04, 2020, 07:50:00 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 04, 2020, 07:41:28 AM

Are there any altcoin exchanges that use Lightning? Over the years I have accumulated a little of this and a little of that and while cleaning up my old wallet server I found a few coins that are still very alive. But what I have is only worth a dollar or 2. Withdraw fees are going to hurt. Last time I did a cleanup like this I converted to doge. I can do that again but I figured there might be some that I could convert to lightning. But, a very quick search found none.

I use Coinplaza.it (referral in LoyceMobile's signature) for this. It can exchange a minimum of 1000 Doge to Lightning (I've used this to buy 1000 Doge using LN).

This made my day, really! Now I finally know what to do with my old doges full of dust!
thanks

LoyceV

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Quote from: DaveF on June 04, 2020, 07:41:28 AM

Are there any altcoin exchanges that use Lightning? Over the years I have accumulated a little of this and a little of that and while cleaning up my old wallet server I found a few coins that are still very alive. But what I have is only worth a dollar or 2. Withdraw fees are going to hurt. Last time I did a cleanup like this I converted to doge. I can do that again but I figured there might be some that I could convert to lightning. But, a very quick search found none.

I use Coinplaza.it (referral in LoyceMobile's signature) for this. It can exchange a minimum of 1000 Doge to Lightning (I've used this to buy 1000 Doge using LN).

DaveF

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Because I am too lazy to look deeply.

Are there any altcoin exchanges that use Lightning? Over the years I have accumulated a little of this and a little of that and while cleaning up my old wallet server I found a few coins that are still very alive. But what I have is only worth a dollar or 2. Withdraw fees are going to hurt. Last time I did a cleanup like this I converted to doge. I can do that again but I figured there might be some that I could convert to lightning. But, a very quick search found none.

Stay Safe
-Dave

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on June 01, 2020, 07:39:57 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DaveF on May 31, 2020, 07:18:57 PM

And think about what you posted (Cinnamon, KDE & GNOME) if all the time / effort / r&d had gone into 1 desktop environment it would probably be a single much better one.

It'll never happen due to various reason. Even GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 causes controversial and give birth to MATE.

Which is kind of my point. How much time / effort / money is going into similar but separate projects that had there been "someone in charge" it might have been avoided.
I have seen a lot of projects out there over the years that have have dev groups split and split again and all work on "The One True Vision" that if they had a management team or person they might have been able to find their way forward as 1 group. And I hate management bloat but you do need it at times.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Wind_FURY on June 01, 2020, 03:42:16 AM

Plus why is Blockstream supporting a Bitcoin IOU in Liquid, instead of the comparatively more trustless Lightning Network?

But Blockstream also funds LN development altogether with other project (such as satellite).

Get one thing done and move to the next, smaller projects are fine (satellite) but push harder on LN with other say 70% of effort with 3 other projects getting 10%.
As it gets closer to finish you can pull people / resources from other projects to get to the finish. Now its like they have 4 things going and each get 25% so they all progress at the same slow pace.

Just my view, having been in IT for 30+ years and seen the same thing again and again.

Stay safe.

-Dave

Plus between the Lightning Network and Liquid, Liquid is NOT Peer to Peer, and NOT as Trustless as Lightning. It's a fact, and it will take you, the user, to go through the exchanges to use Liquid-Bitcoin-IOU. Bitcoins in Lightning are Bitcoins.

DaveF

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DaveF on May 31, 2020, 07:18:57 PM

And think about what you posted (Cinnamon, KDE & GNOME) if all the time / effort / r&d had gone into 1 desktop environment it would probably be a single much better one.

It'll never happen due to various reason. Even GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 causes controversial and give birth to MATE.

Which is kind of my point. How much time / effort / money is going into similar but separate projects that had there been "someone in charge" it might have been avoided.
I have seen a lot of projects out there over the years that have have dev groups split and split again and all work on "The One True Vision" that if they had a management team or person they might have been able to find their way forward as 1 group. And I hate management bloat but you do need it at times.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Wind_FURY on June 01, 2020, 03:42:16 AM

Plus why is Blockstream supporting a Bitcoin IOU in Liquid, instead of the comparatively more trustless Lightning Network?

But Blockstream also funds LN development altogether with other project (such as satellite).

Get one thing done and move to the next, smaller projects are fine (satellite) but push harder on LN with other say 70% of effort with 3 other projects getting 10%.
As it gets closer to finish you can pull people / resources from other projects to get to the finish. Now its like they have 4 things going and each get 25% so they all progress at the same slow pace.

Just my view, having been in IT for 30+ years and seen the same thing again and again.

Stay safe.

-Dave

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on May 31, 2020, 07:18:57 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 31, 2020, 12:48:26 AM

How long, do you believe, until the time that Lightning has an auto-balance channel application, and an easier general UX, for ordinary users? 5 years?

One that works smoothly and semi automatically? 3 to 5 years, depending on how much money they throw at it.

But on current budget, and pace? I initially said five years, but I reduced it to two after Carlton made me believe that it might be an over-estimation.

Plus why is Blockstream supporting a Bitcoin IOU in Liquid, instead of the comparatively more trustless Lightning Network?

DaveF

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Technically Linux is only a kernel and there are many Desktop Environment (DE) and Window Manager (WM) available for OS based on Linux.

Personally i prefer Mac and Linux (Cinnamon, KDE & GNOME) over Windows UI/UX.

I am neutral on the Mac OS / GUI there are some things it does very well and others that I feel are a complete trainwreck.
But, the Linux GUIs are still a mess IMO. And think about what you posted (Cinnamon, KDE & GNOME) if all the time / effort / r&d had gone into 1 desktop environment it would probably be a single much better one.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 31, 2020, 12:48:26 AM

How long, do you believe, until the time that Lightning has an auto-balance channel application, and an easier general UX, for ordinary users? 5 years?

One that works smoothly and semi automatically? 3 to 5 years, depending on how much money they throw at it.
For now there are standards that still don't work depending on what wallet you have. So many projects start fast and then slow to a crawl. Might just be a lot of back end work that we are not seeing / the developers did not anticipate. But without updates, we just don't know.

-Dave

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Quote from: DaveF on May 30, 2020, 08:52:25 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2020, 03:08:21 AM

Quote

Besides, it doesn't make sense to mention proprietary counterparts, unless the project is started by company or the contributor mainly consists of people worked at specific company which also use the project on their company.

Compare Linux, Windows, Mac GUI/UX development.

Some of that can be traced back to "management".

With the elimination of of you like the Windows / Mac / *nix GUI.

Some of the big differences can be traced back to the fact that a lot of times within the Mac / Windows world there are people in charge of the look and feel, there are different people running the coding and how it works, and there are usability testers there are tons of focus groups about what does work and what does not. Now, they do not always get it right. But they do have a better track record then the *nix GUI people.

On the Linux / BSD side for years I was a terminal window only kind of guy, then I started using the GUI just because it was a bit simpler to do some tasks. But some things are still so badly put together it makes me cringe. On the Windows side, since 2000 the GUI has just worked better and smoother and still does. Gnome 3 is getting there but still years behind.

Now, there are some glaring screw ups on big company GUI stuff too, not going to ignore it and some of then are truly epic. [Quick undo button next to the quick save in Visio and other MSFT applications comes to mind]

Now, for the programming on the back end. That is a different discussion.

Stay safe.

-Dave

How long, do you believe, until the time that Lightning has an auto-balance channel application, and an easier general UX, for ordinary users? 5 years?

DaveF

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2020, 03:08:21 AM

Quote

Besides, it doesn't make sense to mention proprietary counterparts, unless the project is started by company or the contributor mainly consists of people worked at specific company which also use the project on their company.

Compare Linux, Windows, Mac GUI/UX development.

Some of that can be traced back to "management".

With the elimination of of you like the Windows / Mac / *nix GUI.

Some of the big differences can be traced back to the fact that a lot of times within the Mac / Windows world there are people in charge of the look and feel, there are different people running the coding and how it works, and there are usability testers there are tons of focus groups about what does work and what does not. Now, they do not always get it right. But they do have a better track record then the *nix GUI people.

On the Linux / BSD side for years I was a terminal window only kind of guy, then I started using the GUI just because it was a bit simpler to do some tasks. But some things are still so badly put together it makes me cringe. On the Windows side, since 2000 the GUI has just worked better and smoother and still does. Gnome 3 is getting there but still years behind.

Now, there are some glaring screw ups on big company GUI stuff too, not going to ignore it and some of then are truly epic. [Quick undo button next to the quick save in Visio and other MSFT applications comes to mind]

Now, for the programming on the back end. That is a different discussion.

Stay safe.

-Dave

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 28, 2020, 05:00:39 AM

It's an assumption based on how other open source projects are inclined to take a longer time to improve UX than their proprietory counterparts.

That's poor assumption, it depends on :
1. Whether the project focus on getting things work correctly or split the focus
2. How many contributor willing to improve the UX
3. Contributor experience about UX development

Would it be a poor assumption if it was pointed directly at Lightning Network development?

Open source projects have contributors, not paid employees. For the development of a better UX, GUI, ease of use, it takes longer because most open source developers code in their free time.

Quote

Besides, it doesn't make sense to mention proprietary counterparts, unless the project is started by company or the contributor mainly consists of people worked at specific company which also use the project on their company.

Compare Linux, Windows, Mac GUI/UX development.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on May 27, 2020, 08:36:27 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 27, 2020, 05:42:33 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 26, 2020, 11:44:55 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 03:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

I believe that would be five years away, or more.

why would you make such an assumption, do you have any reason to believe it?

OK, maybe I was over-dramatic. Maybe two years, but I'm not optimistic.

It's an assumption based on how other open source projects are inclined to take a longer time to improve UX than their proprietory counterparts.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 27, 2020, 05:42:33 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 26, 2020, 11:44:55 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 03:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

I believe that would be five years away, or more.

why would you make such an assumption, do you have any reason to believe it?

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 26, 2020, 11:44:55 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 03:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

I believe that would be five years away, or more.

Quote

It's why I believe being a liquidity provider in Lightning should be made financially justifiable to maintain the node

.

That's an open market: it's already being sold as a service. Just like some custodial wallets ask a fee for deposits. I like BlueWallet because they don't ask that, but they're advertising other exchanges to earn revenue. Lightning Roulette charges 4% fee to convert on-chain Bitcoin to LN.

No, I meant the community of independent node operators/hobbyists, staking their own capital to provide easier routing/liquidity in LN in exchanges for fees.

LoyceV

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 26, 2020, 03:16:03 AM

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

At some point most of that should be automated from within a wallet.

Quote

It's why I believe being a liquidity provider in Lightning should be made financially justifiable to maintain the node.

That's an open market: it's already being sold as a service. Just like some custodial wallets ask a fee for deposits. I like BlueWallet because they don't ask that, but they're advertising other exchanges to earn revenue. Lightning Roulette charges 4% fee to convert on-chain Bitcoin to LN.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: DaveF on May 25, 2020, 10:31:20 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 25, 2020, 04:38:29 AM

Quote from: DaveF on May 24, 2020, 07:50:09 AM

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet?

Compared to opening my own channels, a custodial wallet is:

easier to use
cheaper to fund
better connected
easier to empty

And for small amounts, I don't mind trusting a custodial wallet.

It's going to be interesting once big exchanges start accepting LN transactions, people trust them with large amounts already.

easier to use --> Yes.

cheaper to fund / better connected --> Tough to say, I can put BTC.1 into a channel between my node and a larger peer (say ln.pizza) and then BTC.01 into a smaller one and be done. Never had any real issues spending / receiving except those that did turn out to be caused by me in the end. Not saying there were no issues, just that they all turned out to be "Dave can't read or follow directions" issues. But yeah, funding bluewallet and being done is probably easier.

Plus for non-hobbyists/ordinary users, it's very convenient. Running your own node, staking your own coins, and balancing your channels, is a specialization that requires some level of skill, not present in all Bitcoiners.

It's why I believe being a liquidity provider in Lightning should be made financially justifiable to maintain the node.

LoyceV

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Quote from: DaveF on May 25, 2020, 10:31:20 AM

cheaper to fund / better connected --> Tough to say, I can put BTC.1 into a channel between my node and a larger peer (say ln.pizza) and then BTC.01 into a smaller one and be done. Never had any real issues spending / receiving except those that did turn out to be caused by me in the end. Not saying there were no issues, just that they all turned out to be "Dave can't read or follow directions" issues. But yeah, funding bluewallet and being done is probably easier.

I haven't installed my own node yet, but was comparing my experiences between BlueWallet and Eclair. And I was thinking about much lower values than 0.1 BTC. In BlueWallet, I can fund it with a low transaction fee. When I tried that in Eclair, it didn't confirm fast enough and only confirmed once the channel closed and basically did CPFP with a much higher fee. A full node probably gives more control, but Eclair felt like I have no idea what's happening with fees.

Quote

Just my view. For a newbie it's probably easier. But, Loyce I have seen the work you do scraping data and putting stuff together it's amazing. You are manipulating a ton of data and have a ton of programming behind it. Don't tell me you can't have a Raspiblitz or mynodebtc server up and running in less then an hour. (Not counting sync time)

I can probably get it to work, but never tried. I'd do it if I have a use for it other than paying tiny LN transactions.

DaveF

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 25, 2020, 04:38:29 AM

Quote from: DaveF on May 24, 2020, 07:50:09 AM

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet?

Compared to opening my own channels, a custodial wallet is:

easier to use
cheaper to fund
better connected
easier to empty

And for small amounts, I don't mind trusting a custodial wallet.

It's going to be interesting once big exchanges start accepting LN transactions, people trust them with large amounts already.

easier to use --> Yes.

cheaper to fund / better connected --> Tough to say, I can put BTC.1 into a channel between my node and a larger peer (say ln.pizza) and then BTC.01 into a smaller one and be done. Never had any real issues spending / receiving except those that did turn out to be caused by me in the end. Not saying there were no issues, just that they all turned out to be "Dave can't read or follow directions" issues. But yeah, funding bluewallet and being done is probably easier.

easier to empty --> I use Ride the Lightning so it's just a click on a webpage.

Just my view. For a newbie it's probably easier. But, Loyce I have seen the work you do scraping data and putting stuff together it's amazing. You are manipulating a ton of data and have a ton of programming behind it. Don't tell me you can't have a Raspiblitz or mynodebtc server up and running in less then an hour. (Not counting sync time)

Stay safe.

-Dave

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Quote from: DaveF on May 24, 2020, 07:50:09 AM

2) Why would you want a custodial wallet?

Compared to opening my own channels, a custodial wallet is:

easier to use
cheaper to fund
better connected
easier to empty

And for small amounts, I don't mind trusting a custodial wallet.

It's going to be interesting once big exchanges start accepting LN transactions, people trust them with large amounts already.

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It's not only about the merchant but also the consumer.
Companies want profit and pioneering is lower on the list. If your potential buyer is not that LN savvy might not be the right time to implement it I assume.
Most need serious market research before they can pitch LN to the board/investors. That's what you get when you have some stubborn old farts with serious equity in the company.

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 63. (Read 32053 times)