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Topic: The NEXT generation of Physical Bitcoins... (Read 19104 times)

legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
January 19, 2014, 09:58:09 AM
Have any of you guys seen what this guy is doing with low denomination tradeable BTC's (Numisalis).
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/numisalis-physical-bitcoin

This is a really interesting design, coins are scan-able (tags inside), private key is in the middle of the coin and the coin must be broken open to get it out. Really designed as a usable tradeable off block chain BTC.
Hard to explain it all. I hope his campaign is successful. He has a short 2 minute video explaining things there.

No affiliation except that I gave 60 bucks to campaign and would love it to reach the goal!

Its about sharing



I was disappointed that the gears didn't move.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
Have any of you guys seen what this guy is doing with low denomination tradeable BTC's (Numisalis).
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/numisalis-physical-bitcoin

This is a really interesting design, coins are scan-able (tags inside), private key is in the middle of the coin and the coin must be broken open to get it out. Really designed as a usable tradeable off block chain BTC.
Hard to explain it all. I hope his campaign is successful. He has a short 2 minute video explaining things there.

No affiliation except that I gave 60 bucks to campaign and would love it to reach the goal!

Its about sharing

legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
any plans on making physical coin of any other cryptocurrency? Smiley

hopefully they only make BTC and LTC, all others are crap  Roll Eyes

If there were some demand for it, they would be made.  Coin design and manufacture takes longer than most of the alt coins are in existence.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
any plans on making physical coin of any other cryptocurrency? Smiley

hopefully they only make BTC and LTC, all others are crap  Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
any plans on making physical coin of any other cryptocurrency? Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer

I'd like to see that data source, that percentage seems pretty high.
The conclusion also seems to be a leap of logic as debasement itself is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

You've got the antithesis of the correct conceptualization.

Debasement is necessary else the rich will aggregate all of the money via usury since they spend a negligible (minute) percentage of their income. Wealth and income is power-law distributed [1]. It is small government and decentralized control over debasement (i.e. no central banking) that leads to prosperity, not the lack of debasement.

The statistics for the 5% were reiterated and reexplained:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3608094

[1] Dragulescu, Exponential and power-law probability distributions of wealth and income in the United Kingdom and the United States



http://blog.mpettis.com/2013/08/the-urbanization-fallacy/#comment-581

If you will permit more challenges to your assumptions...
This formulation seems to include a presupposition of legal tender enforcement, and social primogeniture.  Both historically true, but may have less of a future.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000

 ... to waste more of time explaining the same thing over and over again.



Do you find yourself doing that alot? Must be so frustrating, constantly explaining yourself to idiots, yes?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Read also this linked post.

Wow that is a lot buzz words. Your source is some clueless marxist on these forums, except you are misquoting him too. its sad.

I quoted myself and I am the antithesis of a Marxist, specifically a minanarchist, Libetarian, Austrian economics ideology.

You are actually the Fascist, Socialist Pig but you don't realize why because you lack basic math skills as explained below.

Another angle:
In response to someone who claims that inflation is good for the economy because it encourages spending/investment,

That is not my reason for my claim as detailed in this and the linked post. Rather I am saying we have to continually dilute the large capitalists which want to use dumb fixed and guaranteed returns on usury with captured power vacuum of government to parasite and enslave "smaller things grow faster" investment.

I am 100% in favor of highly expert capitalists who invest (their effort, expertise, and money) at-risk in the highest returning ventures, not in usury and government capture. I am not the Marxist, but those who believe in dividends, bonds, and insurance are.

But lets put aside the class warfare propaganda for a second and how utterly wrong your goals and values are.

Even if I accepted your values of what is desirable, your proposed method would do the opposite of what you want. A 5% devaluation of currency per year means a 5% tax on savings account (0% tax on property). To believe that it will cause the rich to lose money while the middle class and poor will be unhurt by it is absurd. The rich keep all their money in assets which earn them dividends. When the money loses value all their assets gain value. Net loss is 0%. However, the middle class cannot afford to spend the time and risk their meager life savings and retirement on such plans. So they will instead be losing money every year. Meanwhile the poor don't have much in savings (but suffer a lot more for each loss), but they aren't getting their salary constantly renegotiated to keep up. If you adjust the minimum wage from 30 years ago for inflation it comes up to over 20$ in todays money, much more then they are actually making.
You are punishing the poor, taxing the middle class, rewarding the rich, and calling it a progressive method absolutely necessary to redistributing wealth.

The alternative is worse for the poor, as I stated eventually via compounding the rich must mathematically hold all of the money. (Worse as they aggregate more wealth, they become powerful enough to capture the government's taxation powers and then use the public backstop to guarantee their dividends.) Then you have slavery because they can dictate all the terms by which they will invest some money, i.e. interest rates could go as high as infinity if only one person held all the money. You need to learn the math of why more independent actors in an economy is directly correlated to macro economic efficiency and thus prosperity.

At least with the perpetual debasement, some money every year is being created to keep the rich from having a monopoly on available money. Instead of the dividends and interest bearing loans (bonds) of the rich gaining x% per year, they only gain (x - debasement)% or (x - inflation)%. The one big advantage the poor have is that smaller things grow faster. On a hot day, a guy selling cold mineral water can triple or quadruple his investment and a billionaire can never do that. So it is not the debasement tax that is regressive, rather it is the lack of debasement and a government tax apparatus that is regressive. Even minimum wage is regressive you fool!

Also please understand that prices P can still decline when M is rising due to increases in investment and productivity for supply Q without collapsing velocity V.

Thus I conclude math is not your strong suite. So STFU and stop wasting my time. Idiot. Go hide under a rock and let it sink in instead of coming back for sloppy seconds, thirds, fourths, ... to waste more of time explaining the same thing over and over again.

Now with the innovation proof-of-work, especially a design that leveraged CPUs that the lower class already own and would not allow GPUs, ASICs, FPGAs, and botnets, then lower classes would have some equal access to that newly created coin. More importantly in terms of maintaining a healthy supply of competing independent actors in the economy, there is a competition for the newly created coin, i.e. those who seek out microhydropower (small streams) which is the least expensive electricity on earth, a smaller economy-of-scale activity which the rich can't do.

And if we can defeat the government's power of taxation with anonymity and decentralized currency and 3d printing commerce, then take away the corrupt backstop of the rich and force them to risk their capital and compete (where they will get resoundly chewed up by smaller things growing faster).

While your intent of rich only taxes is evil, stupid, and counterproductive; the actual specific method you propose and its result of a middle class only tax & poor only penalties are even MORE evil, stupid, and counterproductive in every way shape and form. And the absurdity of it all is that you don't realize you are proposing it because you are so ignorant.

You idiots are why we end up with Dark Ages.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Wow that is a lot buzz words. Your source is some clueless marxist on these forums, except you are misquoting him too. its sad.

But lets put aside the class warfare propaganda for a second and how utterly wrong your goals and values are.

Even if I accepted your values of what is desirable, your proposed method would do the opposite of what you want. A 5% devaluation of currency per year means a 5% tax on savings account (0% tax on property). To believe that it will cause the rich to lose money while the middle class and poor will be unhurt by it is absurd. The rich keep all their money in assets which earn them dividends. When the money loses value all their assets gain value. Net loss is 0%. However, the middle class cannot afford to spend the time and risk their meager life savings and retirement on such plans. So they will instead be losing money every year. Meanwhile the poor don't have much in savings (but suffer a lot more for each loss), but they aren't getting their salary constantly renegotiated to keep up. If you adjust the minimum wage from 30 years ago for inflation it comes up to over 20$ in todays money, much more then they are actually making.
You are punishing the poor, taxing the middle class, rewarding the rich, and calling it a progressive method absolutely necessary to redistributing wealth.

While your intent of rich only taxes is evil, stupid, and counterproductive; the actual specific method you propose and its result of a middle class only tax & poor only penalties are even MORE evil, stupid, and counterproductive in every way shape and form. And the absurdity of it all is that you don't realize you are proposing it because you are so ignorant.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Bitcoin has perpetual debasement, it is however, deeply under the investment growth rate.

As you know, it is declining asymptotically to zero, and will be annually <1% by 2032 and <0.2% by 2040.
We agree on this.

So the issue is with the rate of debasement, rather than the absence of it?

Money that is not debased at about 5% per annum can not be the currency due to Gresham's Law. I ran the data since 1800s, and 5% to be seems about what society requires.

Without debasement, the rich end up owning everything. Society will not tolerate that, thus a looser form of currency always wins.

I'd like to see that data source, that percentage seems pretty high.
The conclusion also seems to be a leap of logic as debasement itself is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

You've got the antithesis of the correct conceptualization.

Debasement is necessary else the rich will aggregate all of the money via usury since they spend a negligible (minute) percentage of their income. Wealth and income is power-law distributed [1]. It is small government and decentralized control over debasement (i.e. no central banking) that leads to prosperity, not the lack of debasement.

The statistics for the 5% were reiterated and reexplained:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3608094

[1] Dragulescu, Exponential and power-law probability distributions of wealth and income in the United Kingdom and the United States



http://blog.mpettis.com/2013/08/the-urbanization-fallacy/#comment-581

Quote
I have not read Keynes, but I think his theories were twisted by those who wanted to misapply them for their own vested interests.

So continuing on my discussion with Suvy above, I offered the following.

Although money can not be tied to a single tangible thing, because the economy must expand faster or slower than the supply of that tangible thing grows. Notwithstanding if the supply of that thing can be manipulated (e.g. the US government manipulated the supply of silver to drive China bankrupt in the 1920s enabling the socialists come into power).

So humanity must have an intangible money (sometimes known as fractional reserves of a tangible good, e.g. gold) or the coins must be debased, so that debt can be created otherwise how can you pay back the lender (i.e. saver) if the economy grows faster than the supply of the tangible thing grows? Well if the value of the tangible things grows due to its limited supply, then the saver is rewarded even with an interest rate lower than than nominal GDP growth rate. But the saver takes all the increase in productivity. And what about the at-risk investor who is responsible for capitalizing those investments that create those increases in productivity? Lenders can’t do that, because they refuse to take a loss, i.e. they want a guaranteed ROI– the interest rate. So in a fixed (rate of increase of) supply money system, the saver takes the ROI from the at-risk investor. Thus society sinks into a Dark Ages, which is what happens when hoarding takes place into a tangible money when humanity loses confidence in intangible money, debt, leverage, and thus civilization collapses. Go back in history and you will not find any exception, including Byzantine (if you know the details of the history well).

But it isn’t debasement of the money supply that is bad, as it can end up in workers’ salaries increasing minus the portion taken by the at-risk investors who deserve it. Any worker has the opportunity to become an at-risk investor too.

What is really deleterious is when an elite group can control the debasement of the money supply. Then they can buy the regulators and run amok, e.g. the New York bankers “Club” (as Armstrong calls them, but I think he is naive and the “Club” is global including the Asian elite!). I expect Asia will cast aside its elite top-down managed economy in the coming crisis so it can rise to be #1.

Here follows the main point I want to make.

We now have the technology for money that can be debased on a set schedule that can’t be controlled by any elite.

That technology is the Proof-of-Work system in Bitcoin.

However, the urgent challenge is that Bitcoin can be attacked by the “Club” using anti-money laundering laws to force everyone to reveal their identity (this is what the Edward Snowden/NSA stuff is really about), pay taxes (on capital gains earned on money itself….what a racket!), and confiscate (in the cause of fighting terrorism or tax shelters).

However, there is a solution to this. There is a combination of anonymity technologies that can be applied to an alternative bitcoin (and a new name), such that the “Club” will be impotent.

Stay tuned…
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
December 30, 2013, 12:35:06 AM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

bip 38 solves this

Whats bip38

It lets someone create a private key for you that only you can decrypt
Sort of solves it.  It makes for a second factor, which is helpful.
Forward transfer-ability is yet another matter.
To make that as simple and durable as current money is another issue.
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 250
December 29, 2013, 11:28:49 PM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

say i bought the btc titan coins with 2 factor

if 1 day they get raided and shut down for whatever reason, would it be impossible for me to redeem my coins if their website goes down?

That's why only buy if you own your private key period. And bip 32 even better.

I decided to go ahead and buy the coins this coming week. I will be selecting the private key method instead of the 2 factor.

I will post a reply with my review and pictures when I receive them.

Thanks for the info and reply Bitbop and TitanBC!
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
December 29, 2013, 11:23:32 PM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

say i bought the btc titan coins with 2 factor

if 1 day they get raided and shut down for whatever reason, would it be impossible for me to redeem my coins if their website goes down?

That's why only buy if you own your private key period. And bip 32 even better.
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 250
December 29, 2013, 11:14:52 PM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

say i bought the btc titan coins with 2 factor

if 1 day they get raided and shut down for whatever reason, would it be impossible for me to redeem my coins if their website goes down?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
December 29, 2013, 04:22:21 AM
TitanBTC I am glad to hear that you are so possessive about bitcoin that you are using your time and resources to assure the prosperity of bitcoin. Yes for sure I want to see bitcoin in a physical form soon just like other paper notes. I guess I need to design bitcoin physical form in my tablet. Ones it get prepared I shall share it here
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
December 29, 2013, 02:32:13 AM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

bip 38 solves this

Whats bip38

It lets someone create a private key for you that only you can decrypt
sr. member
Activity: 403
Merit: 250
December 29, 2013, 01:55:58 AM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

bip 38 solves this

Whats bip38
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
December 29, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

bip 38 solves this
sr. member
Activity: 403
Merit: 250
December 29, 2013, 01:52:51 AM
how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?
You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
December 29, 2013, 01:05:55 AM
Counterfeiting is illegal, but no one is contemplating doing that.
Who said anything about counterfeiting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#Legal_issues
That is
1) a counterfeiting case
2) not settled law
3) not a precedent in this matter
4) jury decided incorrectly (not all elements of the crimes alleged were presented in evidence)

Quote
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/486

Making an original design coin that DOES NOT resemble any existing coin is a crime in the USA which carries the sentence of 5 years in prison and a fine (and historically, total seizure of assets). I am pretty sure its a crime everywhere else.

This was already addressed in this thread, at length.
Check page 4.
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