they are scamming us? | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: Hirose UK on April 01, 2023, 01:30:30 PM

Surprisingly, of the many cases of fraud that were reported, only a few were able to provide clarity and detailed evidence for the truth of the fraud case, and many even attached accusations of nonsense.

Why is that so surprising? If you catch a thief with his hands in your pocket what are you expecting him to say if you ask him "What are you doing?". Do you actually expect an answer like "Not much, I wasmerely trying to pickpocket you"? Or, most likely, he'll say a gibberish nonsense or something like "I was trying to make sure your pocket doesn't have a hole in it, thus you won't lose your money"?

Quote from: Hirose UK on April 01, 2023, 01:30:30 PM

We will not know the truth of who is at fault if both parties concerned do not want to provide full and honest details.
But I never believe in anyone unless there is genuine evidence and clear details of events. If it were just giving words, then I would only consider it a short story of a play.

This is why it's recommended for anybody opening a topic in Scam accusation board to post all the possible evidence he has (screenshots, chat logs etc.).

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Quote from: Hirose UK on April 01, 2023, 01:30:30 PM

Several cases of fraud and accusations were filed in this forum thread, the majority were new accounts and small casinos although there were also major casinos complained about here.
Surprisingly, of the many cases of fraud that were reported, only a few were able to provide clarity and detailed evidence for the truth of the fraud case, and many even attached accusations of nonsense.
We will not know the truth of who is at fault if both parties concerned do not want to provide full and honest details.
But I never believe in anyone unless there is genuine evidence and clear details of events. If it were just giving words, then I would only consider it a short story of a play.

Most new accounts report casino accusations without valid evidence and even they tend to damage the reputation of the casino, but the team should respond to these accusations so that their reputation is restored and their gambling community doesn't think negatively about reports from new accounts, for experienced members they can filter every accusation but new users may be affected by the report and they will avoid gambling at casinos related to the report.

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Quote from: Jawhead999 on April 01, 2023, 06:20:56 AM

Quote from: rodskee on April 01, 2023, 05:19:11 AM

who will accept or admit that they are scammers or cheating? and also what they can only provide is words against words but they will never provide proofs because they are hiding from their privacy.
so choose the site that has been surely safe and those site that has complete and working advertising here in this forum.

Yep it's really hard when a brand new account vs small casino without any reputation debate in scam accusations section when the case isn't clear enough and both of them can't provide a transparent proof. Where should we trust and how can we know who's lying? usually people will leave it until there are many people experienced same and make a complaint toward the casino.

It doesn't mean a big casino can scam and everyone will believe their words, but sooner or later anyone will realized something fishy and the casino is actually the scammer.

Several cases of fraud and accusations were filed in this forum thread, the majority were new accounts and small casinos although there were also major casinos complained about here.
Surprisingly, of the many cases of fraud that were reported, only a few were able to provide clarity and detailed evidence for the truth of the fraud case, and many even attached accusations of nonsense.
We will not know the truth of who is at fault if both parties concerned do not want to provide full and honest details.
But I never believe in anyone unless there is genuine evidence and clear details of events. If it were just giving words, then I would only consider it a short story of a play.

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Quote from: Fivestar4everMVP on March 31, 2023, 06:43:40 PM

Quote from: Hamphser on March 31, 2023, 05:18:29 PM

Quote from: Odusko on March 31, 2023, 04:41:01 PM

Quote from: serjent05 on March 27, 2023, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: rammy2k2 on March 23, 2023, 05:56:22 AM

i doubt there is ONE crypto casino who aint rigged these days, we all know that, we see it every time we gamble
remember, the house always wins, and that dosent mean they win fair

If you are claiming that all crypto casinos are rigged, then why not prove that they are really rigged? The scam accusation board is waiting for anyone who has a complaint and report about scams and alike. I also don't agree that the house always win, it can be refuted by simply playing on a dice. If the house always wins then why do we win oftentimes when betting on dice and other games? The problem is on us, getting greedy and not controlling ourselves to stop when we are winning. So as a result we tend to lose to the house because we failed to control ourselves. And we all know that the house has an edge, it is not kept secret from us, so we cannot whine about losing because of the house's edge.

Any gambler that believes that casinos are rigged entirely to favor the house and at the same time made in a way that the gambler loses at all time make it look as if casinos are entirely scams, even though we have a few number of casinos that are known scams.
But for the fact that we have some well-known casinos that have 100% scores in reputations, with probably fair system.

It is really that a very common human being behavior on pointing out fingers and blaming up someone specially on casino that they arent fair on the time that they had lost their money which it isnt that shocking
nor surprising thing because it is really that part of the reaction and emotions that been mixed up.This is why its better to stick into those top ranking ones and wont be minding about being cheated or rigged.

Very well said mate, it is already a well known human nature to complain and point fingers when things don't go as expected or maybe predicted, most especially when it involves losing something, which in the case of gambling, Is money.

Check out all the physical attacks that non internet casinos have experienced in both the past and the present time, those attacks were carried out majorly from those who have played on that casino and lost - then, they begin to find ways and means through which they could try to get their money back.
But then again, if the gambler wins, unlikely will you ever find such a user attacking the casino, except on occasion where the casino refused the user withdrawal.

Oh, gambling! The capricious nature of chance, folks! A phenomenon in which people react so differently to victory and defeat - some feasting on the bubbles of champagne, while others bathe in a pool of tears. And then there are those few who cross the line, attacking the casino itself! An excessive act, to say the least.

Nevertheless, gambling remains a game of luck - an endless cycle of wins and losses. Online gambling takes this to another level of uncertainty, as you never know who you're pitted against or whether the game is rigged.

But don't worry folks! If you play your cards right and have a little luck on your side, you might just get lucky at the casino (or in life in general) and never have to worry about assaulting it again. If you get lucky, remember to share your good fortune with others, because "it is in giving that we get."

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Quote from: rodskee on April 01, 2023, 05:19:11 AM

who will accept or admit that they are scammers or cheating? and also what they can only provide is words against words but they will never provide proofs because they are hiding from their privacy.
so choose the site that has been surely safe and those site that has complete and working advertising here in this forum.

Yep it's really hard when a brand new account vs small casino without any reputation debate in scam accusations section when the case isn't clear enough and both of them can't provide a transparent proof. Where should we trust and how can we know who's lying? usually people will leave it until there are many people experienced same and make a complaint toward the casino.

It doesn't mean a big casino can scam and everyone will believe their words, but sooner or later anyone will realized something fishy and the casino is actually the scammer.

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Quote from: ethereumhunter on March 28, 2023, 04:13:06 PM

Quote from: xSkylarx on March 25, 2023, 10:02:45 PM

No one will really admit that they are cheating, but if you have hard evidence, you can post it here, because there are still instances where we can't shut down those casinos, but at least other gamblers are aware that they are cheating and won't be playing on them. Also, if you noticed, try to find another casino for you to play at, but it is best to stick to those top casinos as we are sure that they are legit and not cheating on us.

We have seen many reports of cheating from casinos before but some casinos have not given any explanation that they have been cheating. And when we know that, we can enter the casino into suspected casino and we don't need to play at the casino. Yes, instead of having an unpleasant experience playing at the casino, we can play at a top and reputable casino that will not cheat its players. That will make us feel comfortable and safe while playing and we don't need to think about things.

who will accept or admit that they are scammers or cheating? and also what they can only provide is words against words but they will never provide proofs because they are hiding from their privacy.
so choose the site that has been surely safe and those site that has complete and working advertising here in this forum.

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Quote from: BVeyron on March 27, 2023, 08:34:47 AM

Quote from: slapper on March 26, 2023, 05:19:27 AM

Quote from: len01 on March 25, 2023, 11:32:40 PM

Quote from: Mate2237 on March 23, 2023, 01:59:10 PM

Quote from: benalexis12 on March 23, 2023, 09:24:44 AM

Aside from the house edge always winning gamblers and most losing players in every casino, the house they have the capability to control the game, not the gambler can ever control the game, unless the casino has a high reputation and many gamblers play, in this kind of situation it can be said that a gambler can be lucky to win and bad luck to lose.

Smile!!! No gambler is wins, the matter how luck the gambler is, he would definitely loss some games in some days. And the same to the opposite, no gambler is always loss, there must be a day that you will win even though it is a small amount of money. Even at this state, the game can still win if he has lucky in that game. Though it is difficult since he is not controlling the game.

in gambling there will be bad days and there will be good days where gamblers will feel victory or defeat and it all depends on luck.
we can't see how lucky all gamblers are. I know when someone has lost a large amount of gambling the next day, he gets a bigger win than the previous loss.

like when someone gambles in slot games loses $300 with minimum bet. the next day the gambler returns with the same gamble budget but increases the bet amount and ends up getting a big multiplier reaching maxwin.
that's what I'm saying there are bad days and lucky days.

I'm with you 100% – luck be that fickle friend in the gambling game, blessing us with wins and cursing us with losses. Gamblers, man, they fixate on those massive scores, straight-up forgettin' the stacks they've dropped along the way. Gotta keep it real – gambling's just entertainment, so keep that bankroll in check, and don't risk more than you can handle. Am I right?

Recent studies show that gamblers believe they got the Midas touch, thinking they can control the game's outcome. That's how they end up losing. But hey, there are ways to boost your odds, like rocking those basic strategies and steering clear of sketchy bets. Just keep a level head, set their boundaries, and never try to recoup the losses, right?

Sense of golden touch is really a problem among gamblers, and many people start gambling being aware of the statement: "when you win, then you can't stop and lose everything you won", so they tell themselves that it's easy to stop when they win. And real deal happens that they start losing without any wins at all, but continue making bets, they are just unaware that it works not only in the way that "its hard to stop winning", but also in the way that it's hard to stop losing.

the bigger wins the gambler gets, the harder it is to stop gambling. this is a bit of psychology when winning big in our minds we will always have the mindset of winning bigger. even though they unconsciously lose even more from gambling.
this big win is sometimes like a gambling strategy to get us addicted to continuing to bet when we get several wins, of course the gambler will continue to look for bigger wins but always lose all the balance. In my opinion, this is not fraud, but this is just a strategy from the casino to give wins to gamblers so that they continue to bet on gambling.

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Quote from: Hamphser on March 31, 2023, 05:18:29 PM

Quote from: Odusko on March 31, 2023, 04:41:01 PM

Quote from: serjent05 on March 27, 2023, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: rammy2k2 on March 23, 2023, 05:56:22 AM

i doubt there is ONE crypto casino who aint rigged these days, we all know that, we see it every time we gamble
remember, the house always wins, and that dosent mean they win fair

If you are claiming that all crypto casinos are rigged, then why not prove that they are really rigged? The scam accusation board is waiting for anyone who has a complaint and report about scams and alike. I also don't agree that the house always win, it can be refuted by simply playing on a dice. If the house always wins then why do we win oftentimes when betting on dice and other games? The problem is on us, getting greedy and not controlling ourselves to stop when we are winning. So as a result we tend to lose to the house because we failed to control ourselves. And we all know that the house has an edge, it is not kept secret from us, so we cannot whine about losing because of the house's edge.

Any gambler that believes that casinos are rigged entirely to favor the house and at the same time made in a way that the gambler loses at all time make it look as if casinos are entirely scams, even though we have a few number of casinos that are known scams.
But for the fact that we have some well-known casinos that have 100% scores in reputations, with probably fair system.

It is really that a very common human being behavior on pointing out fingers and blaming up someone specially on casino that they arent fair on the time that they had lost their money which it isnt that shocking
nor surprising thing because it is really that part of the reaction and emotions that been mixed up.This is why its better to stick into those top ranking ones and wont be minding about being cheated or rigged.

Very well said mate, it is already a well known human nature to complain and point fingers when things don't go as expected or maybe predicted, most especially when it involves losing something, which in the case of gambling, Is money.

Check out all the physical attacks that non internet casinos have experienced in both the past and the present time, those attacks were carried out majorly from those who have played on that casino and lost - then, they begin to find ways and means through which they could try to get their money back.
But then again, if the gambler wins, unlikely will you ever find such a user attacking the casino, except on occasion where the casino refused the user withdrawal.

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Quote from: Odusko on March 31, 2023, 04:41:01 PM

Quote from: serjent05 on March 27, 2023, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: rammy2k2 on March 23, 2023, 05:56:22 AM

i doubt there is ONE crypto casino who aint rigged these days, we all know that, we see it every time we gamble
remember, the house always wins, and that dosent mean they win fair

If you are claiming that all crypto casinos are rigged, then why not prove that they are really rigged? The scam accusation board is waiting for anyone who has a complaint and report about scams and alike. I also don't agree that the house always win, it can be refuted by simply playing on a dice. If the house always wins then why do we win oftentimes when betting on dice and other games? The problem is on us, getting greedy and not controlling ourselves to stop when we are winning. So as a result we tend to lose to the house because we failed to control ourselves. And we all know that the house has an edge, it is not kept secret from us, so we cannot whine about losing because of the house's edge.

Any gambler that believes that casinos are rigged entirely to favor the house and at the same time made in a way that the gambler loses at all time make it look as if casinos are entirely scams, even though we have a few number of casinos that are known scams.
But for the fact that we have some well-known casinos that have 100% scores in reputations, with probably fair system.

Just stick on where most gamblers do hang out on which you could somewhat assure that you would really be dealing up with the right place.We cant say its 100% fair but at least this one has been trusted up by
many which means the features and qualities of a good site is indeed high and this is the reason on why people been playing on a certain place rather than on considering on depositing on places which arent that
known or not something that popular.

It is really that a very common human being behavior on pointing out fingers and blaming up someone specially on casino that they arent fair on the time that they had lost their money which it isnt that shocking
nor surprising thing because it is really that part of the reaction and emotions that been mixed up.This is why its better to stick into those top ranking ones and wont be minding about being cheated or rigged.

Odusko

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Quote from: serjent05 on March 27, 2023, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: rammy2k2 on March 23, 2023, 05:56:22 AM

i doubt there is ONE crypto casino who aint rigged these days, we all know that, we see it every time we gamble
remember, the house always wins, and that dosent mean they win fair

If you are claiming that all crypto casinos are rigged, then why not prove that they are really rigged? The scam accusation board is waiting for anyone who has a complaint and report about scams and alike. I also don't agree that the house always win, it can be refuted by simply playing on a dice. If the house always wins then why do we win oftentimes when betting on dice and other games? The problem is on us, getting greedy and not controlling ourselves to stop when we are winning. So as a result we tend to lose to the house because we failed to control ourselves. And we all know that the house has an edge, it is not kept secret from us, so we cannot whine about losing because of the house's edge.

Any gambler that believes that casinos are rigged entirely to favor the house and at the same time made in a way that the gambler loses at all time make it look as if casinos are entirely scams, even though we have a few number of casinos that are known scams.
But for the fact that we have some well-known casinos that have 100% scores in reputations, with probably fair system.

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Quote from: Oasisman on March 29, 2023, 10:12:55 PM

Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on March 29, 2023, 07:48:26 PM

Quote from: erep on March 18, 2023, 12:12:02 PM

Quote from: traderethereum on March 18, 2023, 10:37:55 AM

We already realize that in gambling, there are only wins and losses, so we will not cross that line.
If people could think of gambling as entertainment, surely they would be fine and the number of addicts who are addicted to gambling could decrease.
But sadly, that's hard to be true because some people they think of gambling as a way to get quick money when it's not.

So any facts found in the gambling system according to the OP's statement are based on video reviews from YouTube, but we agree with your discussion above that we place gambling only as entertainment and not passive income, so we choose sports gambling because pure winnings are determined based on match scores and not from the casino system.

Well in comparison, for example, with trading, the casino can give you quick results and you don't need to know much to play, some games that are quite complex, such as poker, are what most players look For, because a strategy is established and that is very It is possible that they can win Due to that strategy, but some other games are given only to luck and what the person decides to do, like slots, in my case I use them to relax, I never seek to win at slots, some if they do and big, I still don't have the ability to Make big bets on a slot machine.

If you're looking to gamble for fun, huge bets ain't necessary, in fact it's considered as a gambling technique to get rid of having huge losses. Huge losses doesn't sound fun though.
Playing competitive games like poker is also fun, especially when you're skeptical about the casino being provably fair with games like dice.

Anyway, bettors doesn't really care about whether or not a casino is provably fair as long as the casino is reputable enough for their clients to just ignore the legitimacy of being a provably fair casino.

It's really a trouble in gambling to stop losing money, that's why, yes, huge stakes are not the option for either casino or gambling as a whole. I rarely face troubles to stop after even a small win, but troubles with stopping after several losses were way more difficult for me some time ago. As for huge bets, it's only a thing when your favourite team plays - so that the match becomes really intriguing! In other cases it's not a good idea...

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on March 29, 2023, 07:48:26 PM

Quote from: erep on March 18, 2023, 12:12:02 PM

Quote from: traderethereum on March 18, 2023, 10:37:55 AM

We already realize that in gambling, there are only wins and losses, so we will not cross that line.
If people could think of gambling as entertainment, surely they would be fine and the number of addicts who are addicted to gambling could decrease.
But sadly, that's hard to be true because some people they think of gambling as a way to get quick money when it's not.

So any facts found in the gambling system according to the OP's statement are based on video reviews from YouTube, but we agree with your discussion above that we place gambling only as entertainment and not passive income, so we choose sports gambling because pure winnings are determined based on match scores and not from the casino system.

Well in comparison, for example, with trading, the casino can give you quick results and you don't need to know much to play, some games that are quite complex, such as poker, are what most players look For, because a strategy is established and that is very It is possible that they can win Due to that strategy, but some other games are given only to luck and what the person decides to do, like slots, in my case I use them to relax, I never seek to win at slots, some if they do and big, I still don't have the ability to Make big bets on a slot machine.

If you're looking to gamble for fun, huge bets ain't necessary, in fact it's considered as a gambling technique to get rid of having huge losses. Huge losses doesn't sound fun though.
Playing competitive games like poker is also fun, especially when you're skeptical about the casino being provably fair with games like dice.

Anyway, bettors doesn't really care about whether or not a casino is provably fair as long as the casino is reputable enough for their clients to just ignore the legitimacy of being a provably fair casino.

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Quote from: erep on March 18, 2023, 12:12:02 PM

Quote from: traderethereum on March 18, 2023, 10:37:55 AM

We already realize that in gambling, there are only wins and losses, so we will not cross that line.
If people could think of gambling as entertainment, surely they would be fine and the number of addicts who are addicted to gambling could decrease.
But sadly, that's hard to be true because some people they think of gambling as a way to get quick money when it's not.

So any facts found in the gambling system according to the OP's statement are based on video reviews from YouTube, but we agree with your discussion above that we place gambling only as entertainment and not passive income, so we choose sports gambling because pure winnings are determined based on match scores and not from the casino system.

Well in comparison, for example, with trading, the casino can give you quick results and you don't need to know much to play, some games that are quite complex, such as poker, are what most players look For, because a strategy is established and that is very It is possible that they can win Due to that strategy, but some other games are given only to luck and what the person decides to do, like slots, in my case I use them to relax, I never seek to win at slots, some if they do and big, I still don't have the ability to Make big bets on a slot machine.

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Quote from: ethereumhunter on March 28, 2023, 04:13:06 PM

Quote from: xSkylarx on March 25, 2023, 10:02:45 PM

No one will really admit that they are cheating, but if you have hard evidence, you can post it here, because there are still instances where we can't shut down those casinos, but at least other gamblers are aware that they are cheating and won't be playing on them. Also, if you noticed, try to find another casino for you to play at, but it is best to stick to those top casinos as we are sure that they are legit and not cheating on us.

We have seen many reports of cheating from casinos before but some casinos have not given any explanation that they have been cheating. And when we know that, we can enter the casino into suspected casino and we don't need to play at the casino. Yes, instead of having an unpleasant experience playing at the casino, we can play at a top and reputable casino that will not cheat its players. That will make us feel comfortable and safe while playing and we don't need to think about things.

Not that much but there are really incidents like this about those casino or platforms that had cheated out their players but it didnt really take that long considering that once its proven then players would really

be normally flocking out which it would really be definitely over for the business.They are really that in exchanging their long term profitability on just scamming or being non fair into their users suddenly.

If we do look on the sensible side on which it is really just that dumb if there's someone would really be considering on scamming their users for pennies if they could actually be able to
generate that money in a period of time.It is really just that too foolish for them to do so.This is why only the fair ones would really sustain on this industry.We cant be sure about
100% fairness but its better to stick into these places.

ethereumhunter

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Quote from: xSkylarx on March 25, 2023, 10:02:45 PM

No one will really admit that they are cheating, but if you have hard evidence, you can post it here, because there are still instances where we can't shut down those casinos, but at least other gamblers are aware that they are cheating and won't be playing on them. Also, if you noticed, try to find another casino for you to play at, but it is best to stick to those top casinos as we are sure that they are legit and not cheating on us.

We have seen many reports of cheating from casinos before but some casinos have not given any explanation that they have been cheating. And when we know that, we can enter the casino into suspected casino and we don't need to play at the casino. Yes, instead of having an unpleasant experience playing at the casino, we can play at a top and reputable casino that will not cheat its players. That will make us feel comfortable and safe while playing and we don't need to think about things.

tusandii

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Quote from: Wiwo on March 27, 2023, 04:35:49 PM

-So the casino designed with a house edge that makes the casino to be at advantage at all times, but then that is not enough reason to call it a scam, since there is a probably fair system in place.

True, friends, in essence, casinos are made for business and all the games in casinos are designed to take advantage of every bet issued by gamblers.
I don't think there is a system that is designed to be fair in a casino game. If the system is designed to be fair, then the benefits that can be obtained by the casino are still uncertain and uncertain because the system that runs and gamblers both have a 50% winning percentage.
With the exception of sports betting, it might seem fairer because each bet follows the final result of the sports match itself.

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Quote from: Betwrong on March 27, 2023, 10:19:09 AM

Quote from: rammy2k2 on March 23, 2023, 05:56:22 AM

i doubt there is ONE crypto casino who aint rigged these days, we all know that, we see it every time we gamble
remember, the house always wins, and that dosent mean they win fair

Nope, we don't. Do you think all of us here working in sig campaigns knowingly collaborate with scammers? If you could provide any proof to your words, I would love to read it. But the thing is, you can't. Apart from some bs like this clown is saying in this video, where "Everything this guy is saying is absolutely true." according to one of the comments, you can't provide much.

I mean, why declare about something you don't have a clue about? "the house always wins" Do you even know what that means?

Quote from: rammy2k2 on March 23, 2023, 06:09:59 AM

~
i met casinos that are cheating even provability fair checked , they simply display another result, u can see they are cheating only if u check bet by bet, and no one is doing that

So, you met casinos, or all casinos are like that? That's a big difference, you know.

I kind of get what you mean, it's been said that if no strong evidence can be shown, it will just appear to be a rumor or rumor. Anyone can talk like that, if there is no evidence, it will just remain speculation, right?

Also, most people here in this forum know that the house always wins in a casino and this is normal because the casino was not built for charity, let's also think if all the gamblers win in a casino how long will the gambling? of course not.

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Quote from: Newlifebtc on March 27, 2023, 04:49:17 PM

Quote from: Desmong on March 27, 2023, 04:46:03 PM

I think it all depends on what op means by they are scamming us. You don't expect a casino that is giving us the privilege of using there platform to make bet to nit benefit from us. This is business and they must pay there workers and do some certain things to make sure that there platform keep moving. Money is involved here and that is why a casino will keep benefiting from us whether we like it or not.

To get a proper casino website and you must have to access the site to know if the particular site is running a scam project or not, what I believed so far is that we have to think and they make a proper research of any particular platform will want to patronize in case they are built by a scam people

so what I'm trying to tell you enough is that even though you are such that particular platform without knowing the reputation or the functions of it you will not be able to know what the platform is all about so therefore I'm of the opinion that you don't have to embrace any platform that you see online so I believe such

Newlifebtc

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Quote from: Desmong on March 27, 2023, 04:46:03 PM

I think it all depends on what op means by they are scamming us. You don't expect a casino that is giving us the privilege of using there platform to make bet to nit benefit from us. This is business and they must pay there workers and do some certain things to make sure that there platform keep moving. Money is involved here and that is why a casino will keep benefiting from us whether we like it or not.

To get a proper casino website and you must have to access the site to know if the particular site is running a scam project or not, what I believed so far is that we have to think and they make a proper research of any particular platform will want to patronize in case they are built by a scam people

Desmong

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Crypto bookmaker and casino

I think it all depends on what op means by they are scamming us. You don't expect a casino that is giving us the privilege of using there platform to make bet to nit benefit from us. This is business and they must pay there workers and do some certain things to make sure that there platform keep moving. Money is involved here and that is why a casino will keep benefiting from us whether we like it or not.

Topic: they are scamming us? (Read 1859 times)