Topic: Theymos: What the fuck is up with BFL and TradeFortress? - page 12. (Read 14375 times)

Done.

I'd suggest removing the trust line unless you want to lose 10.15 BTC (or whatever you have now, after bitstamp fees).

You do realize I only did it so someone else wouldn't have done it and you'd be at a loss of 10.15 BTC? I'll say it again, btc address and I'll withdraw that 10.15 from bitstamp to your address, or confirm with me and I'll send you the Bitstamp IOU back.

Trustworthy / non trustworthy are not binary unlike what the Ripple system declares. I'm sure there are people you trust more than others in your life, no?

I have not made a promise to honor any of my IOUs. Not all IOUs / debt are redeemable. Simple example: You will be laughed your way out of court if you sue someone for their debt, when you have no contract of any kind.

My point is that if someone else had done this, you would be at a loss of 10.15 BTC, and I have no obligation to redeem my 10.15 BTC because I had no intention of honoring it in the first place, and there are no terms for redemption.

This is exactly what I wanted to see happen, and exactly what was supposed to happen.

I trusted you for 100 BTC. You have withdrawn 10.15 BTC to blockchain. You owe me 10.15 BTC. We have successfully demonstrated how ripple works.

You of course owe me 10.15 BTC, and you can pay me that back through ripple at any point, I'd prefer it in ripple, rather than blockchain.

Ripple just models real life, only trust people or entities you view as trustworthy. I decided to trust you, and I'm sure you'll want to keep your trust and reputation over the coming weeks and months.

Still unsure what your point is?

At what point has be broken his promise?

If you borrow 1 BTC from me without agreeing any terms of repayment are you a scammer IMMEDIATELY (as you haven't repaid it?) How about in a week's time?  Or a month?  A year?

An IOU can NOT be defaulted on (other than by the issuer stating that they default) unless a means/time-scale for settlement was agreed.

If you disgaree then answer this simple question:  if you receive 1 TF BTC on ripple at what date/time has be defaulted if he hasn't yet redeemed it?

If your claim is that ALL ripple BTC debts should be IMMEDIATELY redeemable for actual BTC then that has some very nasty logistical issues - not least of which being that if you borrow on ripple (i.e. issue an IOU in return for real BTC) you can't actually spend those BTC without being immediately a scammer as you can no longer redeem them on request.  If, on the other hand, your claim is NOT that all IOUs should be immediately redeemable on request then we're back to asking how/when is the agreed redemption of these TF IOUs?

That's ONE of the flaws this little experiment has addressed - that IOUs with no terms are inherently worthless as they can only ever be redeemed if the issuer of the IOUs voluntarily chooses to do so (there's no clearly defined point at which a 'default' can be declared).  Another flaw shown here (which I pointed out and asked about ages back - but it got ignored despite Ripple team answering easy questions in same thread) is that all IOUs are treated equally - just because I issue trust to A and B does NOT mean I value IOUs from them equally or am fine with IOUs from one being swapped to IOUs from the other without any input from myself.

Actually, because losing $1100+ is probably not what you want to see happen, I've transferred your 10.15 Bitstamp BTCs.

Give me an address to send your 10.15 back, because right now if you check your Ripple wallet you shouldn't have any bitstamp IOUs

It does seem to me that Tradefortress is scamming people just to prove a point about the problems with Ripple system. The fact that he is engaging newbs into a system that he considers a scam tells me that at the very least what he is doing is unethical. If I thought someone was a scammer I would not suggest them as a middleman for my transactions.

If you actually did that, someone with my IOUs (not me) is going to have 10.15 Bitstamp BTCs.

I think someone might have a script that does it already. you can still get this transfer done.

TradeFortress. Let's get this over and done with.

I have trusted you for 100 BTC from rPcu8U9dSsK6nHtqgpeSvjuFTmNGq3arPh. And I have put 10.15 BTC/bitstamp in that account.

The scammer tag should be applied because he engaged in predatory practices to con users out of some bitcoins:

1) He posted in the Newbies forum
2) He made his thread self-moderated so no one could warn new users
3) He specifically told new users to take risky actions
4) He took advantage of new users who followed his directions

As it has been stated previously #3 is no different than asking Bitcoin newbies for their private key "to send some coins to them." If this isn't scamming then what the fuck is?

What about BFL? In what universe could BFL NOT be considered scammers?

Could this have to do with that both BFL and TradeFortress have paid for ads on the forum?

How can the mods decide if TF defaults or not? Even if we assume that he did agree to redeem all his IOUs in real BTCs, did he specify any repayment date? He didn't, he can always say he will repay, but probably after a thousand years? I see absolutely no resaon why a scammer tag should be applied, the mods are powerless against him.