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Topic: Turkey shoots down russian military plane on Syria border - page 4. (Read 9723 times)

legendary
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It was clearly a provocation planned and sanctioned by americans. And Erdogan is an idiot to fall for this. They hope russia will fight turkey again for the profit of a london and washington. There was more then a 10 wars between turkey and russia in history.  But Putin is not an idiot. There will be no war.

There will be no direct war. But Russia can trigger a proxy war in the Eastern regions of Turkey, which are having a Kurdish majority. Russia can supply weapons to the PKK and the other insurgent groups operating there. Also, they could train some of the Kurdish forces in Syria, and then help them to infiltrate to Turkey.
hero member
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hyperboria - next internet
It was clearly a provocation planned and sanctioned by americans. And Erdogan is an idiot to fall for this. They hope russia will fight turkey again for the profit of a london and washington. There was more then a 10 wars between turkey and russia in history.  But Putin is not an idiot. There will be no war.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Yes their versions are completely different. It's possible they didn't go around that small part, but even if they did fly through they were in the Turkish space for less than a minute and obviously trying to fly out of it

Less than a minute? An Su-24 does not take more than 5-6 seconds to travel 2,000 meters (this is the distance claimed by the Turkish defense ministry). And I am quite sure that the Turkish authorities managed to issue a total of 10 warnings during this short period of time. That is two warnings every one second.
hero member
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hero member
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Islam and Nazism are belief systems, not races.
hero member
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Hmmm, think I need a caption here...

legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1824
Yes their versions are completely different. It's possible they didn't go around that small part, but even if they did fly through they were in the Turkish space for less than a minute and obviously trying to fly out of it, not into it. It was enough to wait a few seconds until they cleared out instead of firing at them. There was no risk of an attack and no reason to use lethal force. It's obvious Turks were defending Syria.
Also the crash site is quite far from that "violated space" even in the Turkish version, so the plane was chased and attacked right before or even after it's left Turkish space.


I think that both of them lied us about this accident.
They both have some secret agenda here and own interest and goals.
I think Turkey have some kind of deal with ISIS and Russia wants to divide NATO and Wester world over this issue (and also protect Assad.).
I don't trust them at all, it's very dirty politics what they are doing now.
hero member
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ENANTIODROMIA IN RUSSIAN POLITICS

[[[Map: Eurasia. The insignificant tip of the peninsula there at the left is called Western-Europe.]]]



Sovereignty is a measure of power. No power - no sovereignty. According to American political scientist S. Krasner: "Sovereignty is organized hypocrisy"[1]. This is truth.

Power is distributed hierarchically in the world [2]

At the top of the pyramid of powers is the United States. It is served by a number of influential, sometimes obstinate, but always loyal vassals: the EU, Japan, Turkey, as well as distinctive proxies in the Islamic world: Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Pakistan.

The next countries in the scale of power are those who are able to effectively compete in some areas with the United States. They belong to the "second world" (not the first, but not the third): this is the BRICS countries and others like them. Brazil (collectively, Latin America), Russia, India, China and South Africa (collectively, TRANS-Saharan Africa in General). Potentially it is possible that this list can include some of the Islamic powers, seeking to be independent from the USA as much as possible.

All of the other countries in the world are irrelevant and only get underfoot, every time adjoining to someone who is stronger in each particular local case. They are the pretext for sorting things out between the powers of the first and second degree, a kind of Gastarbeitern of world politics.

The US: a structure of power of the first degree

Now the most important thing. The structure of the first power (the United States) is: the highest expression of a certain ideological formula — liberalism ( i.e. globalism or the establishment of a global liberal democracy as the most important mission), as well as two means to achieve the ultimate goal — the victory of liberalism on a global scale —

1. By peaceful trade;
2. By military force.

The "Merchants" (the Doves) in the United States government believe that in favor of liberalism you can persuade others with arguments and seductive proposals, and the “Enforcers” (the Hawks), are convinced that the quickest way to achieve this goal is through the establishment of absolute American military and geopolitical hegemony on a global scale (because the United States is a bastion of liberalism, so the bigger the US - the more that liberalism is influential, the stronger the US - the stronger and deeper is liberalism). There is a deep consensus between the “Merchants” and the “Enforcers”: they both move towards the same common goal, both simultaneously advocating for a one world government and American national power; the only difference is in the choice of means to achieve this common goal. They argue with each other, but the controversy ends when a power of the second degree appears on the horizon.

Then they all act collectively: the most important things bring them together, especially in the face of the enemy and rival. All the contradictions here are purely tactical in nature. The CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) and neocons, pacifists and American militarists are strategically and essentially one single entity. All of them are first and foremost liberals, and therefore, share a liberal ideology, which today can be defined as "American ideology".

If we understand this, we will understand almost everything about the modern world structure.

Enantiomerical compromise

Let us look in greater detail at secondary powers, powers of the second degree. To this category belongs modern Russia.

Its structure of this category depends on the structure of the first power (the US) and, in general, is similar (with differences in proportions) to the structure of all the other secondary powers. There are two symmetrical poles in this structure too: "trade" (peace) and "military" (war). They constitute the core of the bipolar system of governance. While the secondary power is not a direct vassal of the US, and has not turned into a third-rate power (that is a small size country), it has relative sovereignty that is not absolute (unlike the US) but still is not artificial (according to Krasner), like that of a small country.

Relative sovereignty consists of two poles - peace and power, which are, however, qualitatively different. The peace wing - "merchants" is presented by the ideological liberals (acting as agents of hegemony, in the sense of Gramsci [3], and global liberalism), and the security forces — "Caesarists" (also in the sense of Gramsci [4]); that is, the pragmatically oriented bureaucrats, interested only in maintaining power. If the liberals are not against changing the balance of relations with the United States, gradually giving up Russia’s sovereignty (in normal terms) to the primary power (global hegemonic), the Caesarists would refuse liberalism (which for them has no significance) in favour of sovereignty, because under direct American hegemony, the power of national bureaucracies will either be significantly restricted, or transferred into the hands of external managers (as happened in Russia in the 90s).

However both the liberals and the Caesarists, in a power of the second degree, always have a vital interest in maintaining the status quo. They are satisfied with it, as is the case now, and are not happy with the prospect of changes (regardless of which). So both poles are interested in things remaining unchanged. This leads to a sustainable and stable enantiodromia, one able to move simultaneously in two opposite directions: the military stands for peace (not war, which would be logical), and liberals stand for sovereignty (and not globalization, which follows from the ideology of liberalism). The military does not want to fight, and the liberals want to restrain globalization. So here there exists an enantiomerical compromise. Here we find all kinds of contradictory statements: Crimea is ours, Donbass — theirs; we are not at war with Ukraine, we trade with Ukraine, etc. It is not just a cover-up for expansionism using a smokescreen of peaceful but cynical diplomacy, this is indeed the way of thinking of an enantiomerical ruling elite.

Enantiodromia ends where one of the trends clearly begin to dominate. When the Caesarists realize that U.S. hegemony and liberalism as such will inevitably lead to de-sovereignization of Russia, and it does not depend on who prevails in the United States — the hawks or the doves, they (Caesarists) then shift into the zone of ideological non-liberalism (anti-liberalism) and prepare for war; a real military war. Because they know that sooner or later that war will be imposed on them if they will insist on sovereignty.

When the liberals realize the same thing, they cross the border and offer to sacrifice sovereignty for peace.

Outside of enantiodromia, bureaucrats become (anti-liberal and anti-American) patriots, ideological patriots (Russia above all), and liberal supporters of the regime and its elite become opponents of the regime, and an implacable opposition to it (there should be no Russia at all). Liberals in irreconcilable opposition represent a Fifth Column, while the liberals in the government — the Sixth Column. Symmetrically, a distinction exists between security officials and bureaucrats (within the elite), and the independent ideological core of patriotism (great power nationalists, supporters of the Orthodox Empire, traditionalists, conservatives and conservative revolutionaries, Eurasianists and followers of the 4PT).

But in modern Russia, as in almost all modern powers of the second degree, the enantiodromia practically dominates everywhere. This is the alliance of military men for peace with the liberals for sovereignty. They mimic the structure of the first power, but this imitation is based on one fundamental mistake: American elites are ideologically unanimous, aspiring towards a common goal and argue about tactics: tools, processes, timing, the place and time of carrying out of an operation, expediency, a calculation of the balance of interests, etc. In contrast, the enantiodromia elites are self-contradictory: the liberals are in one party, national bureaucrats (Caesarists) in the opposite. Doves and hawks in the U.S. are two horses harnessed from one side of the chariot; the liberals and bureaucrats in Russia - from different sides: this is enantiodromia.

Enantiodromia of the second-level powers is in a structural stupor, however it is also in a hurry to get rid of those who pose a threat - the Fifth Column, the ultra-liberal opposition who are directly challenging our sovereignty, and also the committed patriots who insist on a non-liberal ideology and the inevitability (but preparations must begin now) of a direct clash with the United States. So, outside of the mainstream are those and others. The Fifth Column, and consistent patriots (military for war) are banned. The primary discourse in the society is completely controlled by enantiodromians who are looking more and more like schizophrenics.

If we understand this, we will understand not "almost everything" in the modern world, but in fact everything. Indeed the same scheme, mutatis mutandis, works for all the other second level power countries, and even third-rate countries, which are in a field of intense controversy between wealthy and geopolitically ambitious countries.

Crimea without electricity: explanation

This general formula explain to us the reason for this surprise. When we reunited with Crimea in response to the Maidan, we were the only ones who recognized the legality of this reunion, and nobody else. It absolutely makes sense that Kiev does not just disapprove, but starts a direct "Reconquista" if it can, and if Kiev is unable to do so, it will try to strangle the separated territories in any other available way. From the point of view of consistent patriots in Russia, it is very clear and has been very clear from the beginning. The Americans and their European vassals pushed the crowd in Kiev to overthrow the compromising (enantiodromic) Yanukovych, who was both yours and ours, and not yours, and not ours (until he confused himself). The goal was to bring to a third power country, with close-to-zero sovereignty, a directly pro-American liberal elite: and so it happened. This dealt a blow to Russian sovereignty, and then despite the enantiodromic condition (this time Russian), there emerged a consensus (albeit relative) of traders and security forces who responded with the reunification with Crimea. Not all Sixth Columnists unconditionally accepted the Crimea reunion, but there was nothing they could do: those who were categorically against it could just go over to the Fifth Column.

But the joy of the patriots was premature: the Crimea became an end for something else, and with respect to the Donbass, the enantiodromia prevailed: the "enforcers" for peace together with the liberals for sovereignty began to write the Minsk agreement. Once again their slogan was: "if only there was no war" began to be heard. Trade negotiations with Kiev restarted: no one was fighting. Yes, war is peace. All is good. A mountain of corpses, an accident; the internal affair of a third-rate country. Political purges began among the patriots, who thought that the bureaucracy, Caesarists and security forces, had shifted in their direction, in the direction of Novorossiya, anti-liberal ideology and preparation for a decisive war. There it was. But enantiodromia kept its power firmly and was not going to give it up. Not now.

Yet in Kiev the situation was no better. Overthrowing one enantiodromist, a mob of this third-rate power brought to power still another enantiodromist. And in the new environment he began to waver: neither war nor peace, rushing from the fight with the rebels of Donbass to the Minsk agreements and discussions of gas prices. In this situation, two enantiodromias with the participation of the bipolar American elite (always promoting solely in their interests in any situation no matter by trade or war) Ukraine supplied electricity to the seceded Crimea.

Supplied up to a certain point, then stopped. A little more war, a little less trade. Tomorrow may be again a little more commerce, a little less of the "Right Sector", and so on in this period.

In Russia, structurally the situation the same, but the level of power is different: the difference between relative and fictitious sovereignty is still very significant. It is however partially neutralized by the fact that behind the country with virtually no sovereignty looms the shadow of the country with absolute sovereignty (the US). And here is the important conclusion: the way Poroshenko negotiates with Russia, is the same way Moscow negotiates with Washington. The imbalance of powers explains how negotiations are going: the strong can always break any agreement if it is in their interest to do so, without consequences (if there is nobody who is stronger). The weak, following the lead of the strong (trade, doves, if only there was no war), always depend on the strong more and more. And if it comes to a critical point, then it will be too late to start the war at some point, Moscow can do with Kiev whatever it wants by using the carrot and the stick tactic. But Washington can do the same with Moscow.

The liberals in Washington count on this in relations with Russia. They are willing to postpone war, so the Sixth Column in Moscow has time to strengthen its position, to embed liberalism deeper in the elites and even the masses, hoping that in this way the weakened secondary power will fall into their hands by itself. The American strategists (for example, Steve Mann) understand that liberalism, historically, strengthens democracy and by contrast, corrupts and undermines undemocratic regimes.

But this game lasts only as long as the Sixth Column stays empowered together with a guarantee of peace (the peace in exchange for liberalism) continues to weaken Russia. If ideological patriots (and not just the bureaucrats) become active during this time, then the initiative goes to the Washington hawks. Not against the Washington "doves" and "traders" as it may seem, but with their blessing. After all, they both have one goal.

Washington phones up Kiev, and electric transmission towers leading to Crimea get blown up. From Moscow it may be followed only by an enantiomerical answer: surprise or indignation. After all, war is peace. Do not forget this.

Thus, we have not only solved the riddle of our surprise, but have also learned a good theoretical lesson from this minor episode in the Great War of Continents.

[1] Krasner S. D. Sovereignty: Organized Hypocrisy. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1999.
[2] Lake David A. Hierarchy in International Relations: Authority, Sovereignty, and the New Structure of World Politics. Ithaka, NY: Cornell University Press, 2009.
[3] Gramsci, Antonio. Selections from the Prison Notebooks. International Publishers, 1971.
[4] Ibid.

http://katehon.com/1340-enantiodromia-in-russian-politics.html

sr. member
Activity: 756
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Infleum
Yes their versions are completely different. It's possible they didn't go around that small part, but even if they did fly through they were in the Turkish space for less than a minute and obviously trying to fly out of it, not into it. It was enough to wait a few seconds until they cleared out instead of firing at them. There was no risk of an attack and no reason to use lethal force. It's obvious Turks were defending Syria.
Also the crash site is quite far from that "violated space" even in the Turkish version, so the plane was chased and attacked right before or even after it's left Turkish space.

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Although I don't like Russian politics Turkey had no right to shoot down their plane. Every time a plane violates another country's air space it's escorted back by jets, but it's not shot at unless the countries are at war. I haven't heard of such war being announced so the attack was unnecessary.

That is, IF the Russian plane had violated the Turkish air-space. The Turkish version of the events had been very inconsistent, and as per the Russian data, the fighter jet was never present in the Turkish sky. Even the Americans confirmed that the plane was shot down when it was over the Syrian airspace in the Latakia province.
sr. member
Activity: 756
Merit: 250
Infleum
Although I don't like Russian politics Turkey had no right to shoot down their plane. Every time a plane violates another country's air space it's escorted back by jets, but it's not shot at unless the countries are at war. I haven't heard of such war being announced so the attack was unnecessary.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
Turkey has right to shoot any flying creature. That's out of discussion.
Yeah, the Sun revolves around Earth, that's also out of discussion. What a clown you are, your stupidity exceeds any possible limits. Cheesy

If it crosses Hatay border Turkey has right to shoot any flying creature. That's out of discussion
No, they had no such right you idiot. There was a standard protocol of interception, which was compulsory for all members of international community, even for the North Korea. But now you, middle age goatfuckers, successfully ruined it. You've made a precedent, allowing everybody in the world to do the same. Destroying international institutions is all what you are capable of.

EDIT

Turkey has violated Greek air space thousands of times per year for years. According to what you say, Greece has every right to shoot down your jets. But I find it interesting that Turkey has stopped violating Greek airspace since the incident.
legendary
Activity: 3108
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Omg. I am surpsied you can actually use the internet. You are an complete idiot. Simply put racists are stupid.

You Turkish goatfuckers are amazing. I went through a few of your recent posts, and the word "racist" was repeated 12 times. Exterminating 3 million Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians is not "racist". But if someone criticize the Turks and their bastard president Erdogan, then it becomes racist.

One of the meanings for "Turk" in Russian language is euphemism for stupidity. They've lost dozens of armed conflicts and dropped the entire empire into trashcan, yet still didn't learned anything.

EDIT: The same is correct for French, German, Ukrainian and so on. Just for example, "Mais tu es turc, quoi?!" means something like "Are you stupid or what?".
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Omg. I am surpsied you can actually use the internet. You are an complete idiot. Simply put racists are stupid.

You Turkish goatfuckers are amazing. I went through a few of your recent posts, and the word "racist" was repeated 12 times. Exterminating 3 million Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians is not "racist". But if someone criticize the Turks and their bastard president Erdogan, then it becomes racist.
hero member
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Islam and Nazism are belief systems, not races.
The difference is this case is the opportunity to survive, the Armenians didn't deserve to be massacred, but individually they had options which wouldn't be available in a nuclear strike... A nuclear attack is like genocide on steroids, served with a side of torture for dessert...

Nukes target civilian populations, civilian populations are targeted to destroy their ability to sustain a war effort. For what rational purpose would Russia feel compelled to take that course of action against a country like Turkey? It's simply unwarranted...

No offense, but it's crazy to say the Armenians had options.

It probably would be irrational for Russia to nuke the turks. There are better ways to fuck the turkish animals and maybe earn some profit on the side. But I disagree that it's unwarranted. It's warranted. It's justifiable. And the turks totally deserve it.

But don't worry turks, I'm sure if Putin tries to nuke you your all-Ackbary Allah can stop a nuke. Fucking morons.

Omg. I am surpsied you can actually use the internet. You are an complete idiot. Simply put racists are stupid.

Omg. Is u still surpsied?

Just kidding. Seriously, thanks for your thoughtful reply. It's caused me to seriously rethink my views on Islam in general and Turkish culture in particular. In both cases they've clearly been nothing but positive influences bringing the human species towards enlightenment and modernity.

Wait, now I'm just kidding. Seriously, I hope to hear Erdogan and his lackies have some mysterious Litvinenko style symptoms soon. No need for a big nuke destroying valuable infrastructure. Just poison the dogs.
sr. member
Activity: 406
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chopper, sent to evac the pilots was shot at with TOW missile, killing one Marine.

The shot was made on empty helicopter, dead marine was by fire from earth.
hero member
Activity: 616
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Well, in war you attack the enemy´s supply lines. It´s basic. Those who are against such basic measures, such as Obama, Cameron, Erdogan and other NATO personalities must be the enemy or in bed with the enemy for some reason, there really is no way around it.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
It's not about Russia, Turkey have right to shoot any flying machine inside their borders. If it was another countries plane they still shoot it anyway. They didn't even know it was a Russian plane when they shot it.

That's the clincher, isn't it? Russian fighter jet was shot down over Syrain territory, so it was Turkish airforce that violated Syrian airspace.

It it was shot down over Turkey, the pilots would have ejected over Turkey, would be taken by Turkish border guard and would have been sitting safely in Turkish prison at worst. Not being dead by the hand of the US/Turkey friends - the ISIS.

Besides, Russian operations in Syrian airspace were no secret, Russia has (had?) an information sharing initiative with NATO.

And you know, when American fighters or recon panes violate Russian airspace, they are usually headed off not shot down...

This shooting-down was a premeditated act of provocation on Turkish/US part, who don't want ISIS destroyed. They've just achieved the opposite effect, though.

Oh, and anyone, who expects Putin to react in a hard or violent manner, has not been paying attention to Russian politics in the last 15 years, especially to Russia's reaction to the American invasion of Ukraine. The reaction will come, but it will be slow, balanced, and well-thought-out.


As expected.
https://www.rt.com/news/323404-lavrov-syria-s24-turkey/

Quote
Moscow will measure its response to limit the harm done to Turkish and Russian businessmen, who had nothing to do with the incident, and would decide on a proper action, Lavrov said.

“We cannot fail to react to what happened. Not because we must retaliate. It’s just that there are too many issues in Turkey that pose a direct terrorist threat to our citizens. And not only ours,” he said.

Lavrov said after canceling his planned visit to Istanbul that Moscow doesn’t indent to send any senior officials to Turkey or receive any senior Turkish officials. At the same time, phone channels remain open, as evidenced by the call with Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu.

Good point:
Quote
The Russian minister said there was a question of American involvement in the downing of the Russian plane. According to his sources, the US demands all members of the anti-IS coalition led by Washington, who use US-made military aircraft, coordinate all deployments with the US military.

“I wonder if this demand of the Americans covers… Turkey. If it does, I wonder whether Turkey asked permission from the US to fly its US-made planes and take down – let’s say 'an unidentified' – plane over Syrian territory,” Lavrov said.

And a final nail in Obama's diplomatic coffin:

Quote
“President Hollande suggested measures to close the Turkish-Syrian border to stop the flow of militants and finances to terrorists. It’s remarkable that President Obama didn’t react to it. I believe it’s a good suggestion and that during the visit tomorrow President Hollande will tell us details. We are prepared to consider these measures in earnest. Many people say that sealing the border would effectively eliminate the terrorist threat in Syria,” Lavrov said.

Also, the parachuting pilots were shot at, which is a direct violation of the Geneve convention. In addition, the rescue chopper, sent to evac the pilots was shot at with TOW missile, killing one Marine.

If Turkey continues to claim that it shot down the Russian airplane over Turkish territory, then all the above also happened there, which puts Turkey into a very bad spot indeed.
hero member
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never gonna happen cockroaches will win it's just a saying
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Yes, the wreckage landed in Syria as did the pilots. If it was supposed to have been in Turkish airspace I guess it would have to be heading out of there for the wreckage to end up in Syria.

Lies age very badly and these NATO/Turkey fabrications are so hopeless that they´re practically dead on arrival.
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