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Topic: VOD should be removed from default trust for systematic abuse of his position - page 22. (Read 55257 times)

Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
I have had a recent run-in with VOD (link in my sig about Kluge)

The only recent run-in you had with me was leaving me negative feedback.  I haven't posted a single negative thing about you.   Undecided

You seem to imagine and hope that the world is against you.  Maybe you should seek help?
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
I have known Tecshare since mid-2013
We have had many heated discussions..mostly a long time ago.
I never known him to be untrustworthy.

What i am hearing here is he wanted to criticize the delicate position VOD has.
When Techsare opened his mouth he was hit with negative feedback for it,.
No that does not seem fair (if that is how this story goes - i only read some of this topic)

I won't deny VOD has done a lot of good ratings on bad guys.
And that is not what the OP was saying here.. i think it was about accuracy.

I have had a recent run-in with VOD (link in my sig about Kluge)

He basically ignored me now and for the last year+ anytime i brought up my problem.
And i wanted to hear some sympathy or maybe i will try and help you.
Instead i was mouthed off.
I was the one abused then abused by everyone else on top of that.

So..
yeah i see clearly VOD struts around being an asshole to people if he feels like it.. abusing his position on DT.
sr. member
Activity: 305
Merit: 250
Did he retired?

well he hasn't logged in for a full month now so maybe. though we won't know for sure till at least 2 months from now if he returns

I hope he never comes back unless its to remove some of the negative ratings he has put in without cause.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Probably taking a break due to real life. It happens.
copper member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1007
hee-ho.
Did he retired?

well he hasn't logged in for a full month now so maybe. though we won't know for sure till at least 2 months from now if he returns
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Accusations without any proof at all are useless...

Funny you say this, because that is the entire reason this thread was created. When people damage your reputation without proof using the trust system, all there is to do is point at the accuser. How exactly do you prove a negative? Why should people be guilty until proven innocent?

Funny that VOD never did that, ''systematic abuse'' Maybe he was mistaken once or twice but i wouldnt call that systematic when  he has around 99% accuracy with his ''reports'' or trust ratings

Oh really? He was averaging about 5 negatives a day just before he "left". Once or twice? He left several hundred negative ratings, so even by your own metric of him being 99% correct in his ratings he would have left more than 1 or 2 false ratings.

His repeated abuse of the trust system is well documented on the forum, as well as this thread. In addition he has a consistent habit of not having any evidence for a vast number of his accusations. Do you know these people? Then how do you know that his ratings are accurate? Because he says so? Leaving people negative ratings with zero evidence is a bad precedent to set and opens up even more avenues for abuse.

Too bad you haven't bothered to review any of this stuff and just pretend like you know what you are talking about without bothering to read the substance of the complaints.
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 505
Accusations without any proof at all are useless...

Funny you say this, because that is the entire reason this thread was created. When people damage your reputation without proof using the trust system, all there is to do is point at the accuser. How exactly do you prove a negative? Why should people be guilty until proven innocent?

Funny that VOD never did that, ''systematic abuse'' Maybe he was mistaken once or twice but i wouldnt call that systematic when  he has around 99% accuracy with his ''reports'' or trust ratings
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1010
Ad maiora!
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Accusations without any proof at all are useless...

Funny you say this, because that is the entire reason this thread was created. When people damage your reputation without proof using the trust system, all there is to do is point at the accuser. How exactly do you prove a negative? Why should people be guilty until proven innocent?
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 505
If you don't trade then why are you so interested in changing a system that you do not use and that does not affect you Roll Eyes

Because it did affect me when you went after me with all your might trolling me with multiple accounts, you even made a new account a few weekends ago and started again (see feedback of "funtotry").    This cost me money because for a limited amount of time I was unable to contract with my signature sponsor due to the fact that you were briefly on default trust.  Anyway, that kind of abuse is clearly why you didn't last on the default list.  But I advocate for changing the situation so that others aren't abused the way I was.  And so that we can have a more fair and honest system if I do want to start trading.

Accusations without any proof at all are useless, the ratings you have are perfectly fine, in the reference link where you are being accused all i see is you ''defending'' yourself by saying that the people who left you a negative trust are the same person which is not an argument to prove your innocence whatsoever. You are always trying to avoid talking about the real issue and instead attack the people who is accusing you
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
one for one and 1 2 3
Hello

I never deal with vod and no connection with him
But I see raining with negative
Sometime with logic but sometimes without
For me is ok even if he exaggerated
Anyone have thay one reason.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
If you don't trade then why are you so interested in changing a system that you do not use and that does not affect you Roll Eyes

Because it did affect me when you went after me with all your might trolling me with multiple accounts, you even made a new account a few weekends ago and started again (see feedback of "funtotry").    This cost me money because for a limited amount of time I was unable to contract with my signature sponsor due to the fact that you were briefly on default trust.  Anyway, that kind of abuse is clearly why you didn't last on the default list.  But I advocate for changing the situation so that others aren't abused the way I was.  And so that we can have a more fair and honest system if I do want to start trading.
copper member
Activity: 2926
Merit: 2348
If you don't trade then why are you so interested in changing a system that you do not use and that does not affect you Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
W.r.t. getting scammed and quick feedback, I have to admit, I've only heard the self-congratulatory claims that QS saves lives by this quick feedback, but I've never actually seen that story, please send me links.

How can I link you to scams that never happened because of his feedback?
If there's no evidence at all, then why suggest that such a thing happened?  I admit the connundrum is difficult---to provide evidence of something that would have happened but didn't.  But you were the one making the claim that something would have happened.  I'm merely asking for some sort of basis for the claim.
On the other hand, I was the victim of a personal smear attack he perpetrated on me,  and he ran ndnhc through the mud unneccesarily for almost a week.  Ie, I've seen him wrong again and again and I can't really think of a time when he backed down and apologized.  I'm just saying Vod is inactive. QS is (thankfully, for the moment) removed from default trust, but he's still out there doing his power-hungry thingy.

QS and vod are not defaulttrust. It's bigger than them two and the one that you feel you were wronged by is not on it any more and the other is away as you said. What other issues have arisen lately from it? 99.9% of the time it works well going unnoticed and managing itself and nobody complains but when they do if abuse has happened then it usually gets worked out in one way or another.

From my observations, the "default trust" scheme currently going on really causes more harm than good.  It creates and unnecessary and unreliable sense of security for newbies who need to take the time to investigate before trading.

It doesn't; it's the opposite, it does far more good than bad. I know there would be much more chaos if there was no feedback system at all or one where everybodies were equal. Everyone would be in the red.
Getting rid of the default trust list doesn't imply that there is no feedback system at all.  To my mind, the fix here is to replace default trust with an empty list.   Ie, new accounts have empty trust lists and when an account has an empty trust list, people see the "Trust: " link with a message which says "you have no one on your trust list".  Clicking on that leads to a post which tells you about the trust system and how to use it.  From there, you could even have some suggested trust list for starters.  By simply adding this one extra step to reify default trusters, people are going to be more aware of how trust works and how it doesn't and they'll become more educated about how to do business instead of relying on green and red colors as meaning "give this guy your money" or "stay awaaaayyy!", respectively.
It creates a privileged class of people who can lord their feedback over others---whether or not they've traded with them.

Sure, being on it is a privilege but having traded with someone isn't a reason not to leave feedback but feedbacks need to be justified. People who use it vindictively likely wont stay on there long.
So far that seems to be what I experienced, yet I still don't see the positives associated with having this privileged class.
It goes against the bitcoin ethos of being your own bank, making decisions for yourself, etc.

If we're going against the ethos of bitcoin then the forum should be decentralised, but it's not. If you want one that's decentralised I think you would find it'd be far more chaotic than this forum ever was or will be. People can still make decisions by themselves but the feedback is there as a guide to help you make that decision. You could ignore vod's or Qs's or anybody else's ratings if you so wish.
I'm not arguing that every single thing has to meet with some "ethos", just that in this particular case, I don't see the merits of enshrining a ruling class of default trusters, especially in conjunction with the account trading that goes on here.  The two add up to too much power and potential for manipulation and conflicts of interest.  This is just my opinion.
The only arguments for keeping it in place (which I've heard) come from those who are on default trust or are clearly working hard to get there and they say "but default trust helps newbies".  But these claims are not supported by evidence (that I've seen).

And the only ones I hear for getting rid of it come from those who aren't on it or wish they were or felt wronged by it in some way or another (whether justified or not). Again, I don't know what facts or stats you'd like or where they could be gotten from on how default trust doesn't or does cut down on scams but from mere observation it works in many cases I've seen but it is also logical that most people would not send money to scammers had they been marked red. You can disagree if you wish but it's my belief that it cuts down on scams a lot (though of course it can also be abused in ways but the vast majority of the time it's used as appropriate).
Fair enough, opinions may differ.  I don't trade so I can't really say that I have a good idea how many scams it may or may not have cut down on.  On the other hand, I do enjoy the technical discussion and gambling boards on this forum and it's amazing to me, when I peep into meta, how much drama and recrimination and shouting seems to go on over who's been marked red by this or that person.  FWIW, I do ignore the ratings of Vod and Quickseller (albeit for different reasons) and I appreciate that at least the trust system allows us to edit our lists.  I just think that this could be made stronger by not offering a default list, but instead, a suggestion for people to build one of their own and a link on how to do it.

Thanks, hilliarious, for the replies, I respect your opinion.
global moderator
Activity: 3934
Merit: 2676
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W.r.t. getting scammed and quick feedback, I have to admit, I've only heard the self-congratulatory claims that QS saves lives by this quick feedback, but I've never actually seen that story, please send me links.

How can I link you to scams that never happened because of his feedback?

On the other hand, I was the victim of a personal smear attack he perpetrated on me,  and he ran ndnhc through the mud unneccesarily for almost a week.  Ie, I've seen him wrong again and again and I can't really think of a time when he backed down and apologized.  I'm just saying Vod is inactive. QS is (thankfully, for the moment) removed from default trust, but he's still out there doing his power-hungry thingy.

QS and vod are not defaulttrust. It's bigger than them two and the one that you feel you were wronged by is not on it any more and the other is away as you said. What other issues have arisen lately from it? 99.9% of the time it works well going unnoticed and managing itself and nobody complains but when they do if abuse has happened then it usually gets worked out in one way or another.

From my observations, the "default trust" scheme currently going on really causes more harm than good.  It creates and unnecessary and unreliable sense of security for newbies who need to take the time to investigate before trading.

It doesn't; it's the opposite, it does far more good than bad. I know there would be much more chaos if there was no feedback system at all or one where everybodies were equal. Everyone would be in the red.

It creates a privileged class of people who can lord their feedback over others---whether or not they've traded with them.

Sure, being on it is a privilege but having traded with someone isn't a reason not to leave feedback but feedbacks need to be justified. People who use it vindictively likely wont stay on there long.

It goes against the bitcoin ethos of being your own bank, making decisions for yourself, etc.

If we're going against the ethos of bitcoin then the forum should be decentralised, but it's not. If you want one that's decentralised I think you would find it'd be far more chaotic than this forum ever was or will be. People can still make decisions by themselves but the feedback is there as a guide to help you make that decision. You could ignore vod's or Qs's or anybody else's ratings if you so wish.

The only arguments for keeping it in place (which I've heard) come from those who are on default trust or are clearly working hard to get there and they say "but default trust helps newbies".  But these claims are not supported by evidence (that I've seen).

And the only ones I hear for getting rid of it come from those who aren't on it or wish they were or felt wronged by it in some way or another (whether justified or not). Again, I don't know what facts or stats you'd like or where they could be gotten from on how default trust doesn't or does cut down on scams but from mere observation it works in many cases I've seen but it is also logical that most people would not send money to scammers had they been marked red. You can disagree if you wish but it's my belief that it cuts down on scams a lot (though of course it can also be abused in ways but the vast majority of the time it's used as appropriate).
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
I agree with the OP . Vod is here just for leaving negative trusts as far as I have observed . He takes action very rapidly . Ofcourse one negative trust is not going to affect a person having so mmuch positive trusts, but the fact is you have no right to spoil someones profile without a logical reason.

How swiftly should action be taken with potential/very probable scammers? Rapid is usually needed to stop them from scamming, as if you delay that's when people get scammed. I often delay in leaving feedback and/or prefer to give users the benefit of the doubt or wait till I'm 100%, but me not immediately leaving negative when I probably should have has lead to one person getting scammed recently and a few others before that. Vod or QS or whoever may get the occasional feedback wrong from time to time but 99% of the time they're on point and stop a lot of people getting scammed. People who do receive negative feedback they believe in error or without merit can make their case in Meta and if they can show that they're unwarranted the people who left them will often remove them but we really shouldn't be demonizing scam-busters unless their success rate seriously drops off.

What about demonizing retired scambusters?  As far as I know, Vod quit the forum almost two months ago and is off sailing around now.  Some people who are posting here about his "rapid fire" action certainly have a different definition than me of "rapid fire". 

W.r.t. getting scammed and quick feedback, I have to admit, I've only heard the self-congratulatory claims that QS saves lives by this quick feedback, but I've never actually seen that story, please send me links.  On the other hand, I was the victim of a personal smear attack he perpetrated on me,  and he ran ndnhc through the mud unneccesarily for almost a week.  Ie, I've seen him wrong again and again and I can't really think of a time when he backed down and apologized.  I'm just saying Vod is inactive. QS is (thankfully, for the moment) removed from default trust, but he's still out there doing his power-hungry thingy.

From my observations, the "default trust" scheme currently going on really causes more harm than good.  It creates and unnecessary and unreliable sense of security for newbies who need to take the time to investigate before trading.  It creates a privileged class of people who can lord their feedback over others---whether or not they've traded with them.  It goes against the bitcoin ethos of being your own bank, making decisions for yourself, etc.  The only arguments for keeping it in place (which I've heard) come from those who are on default trust or are clearly working hard to get there and they say "but default trust helps newbies".  But these claims are not supported by evidence (that I've seen).
global moderator
Activity: 3934
Merit: 2676
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I agree with the OP . Vod is here just for leaving negative trusts as far as I have observed . He takes action very rapidly . Ofcourse one negative trust is not going to affect a person having so mmuch positive trusts, but the fact is you have no right to spoil someones profile without a logical reason.

How swiftly should action be taken with potential/very probable scammers? Rapid is usually needed to stop them from scamming, as if you delay that's when people get scammed. I often delay in leaving feedback and/or prefer to give users the benefit of the doubt or wait till I'm 100%, but me not immediately leaving negative when I probably should have has lead to one person getting scammed recently and a few others before that. Vod or QS or whoever may get the occasional feedback wrong from time to time but 99% of the time they're on point and stop a lot of people getting scammed. People who do receive negative feedback they believe in error or without merit can make their case in Meta and if they can show that they're unwarranted the people who left them will often remove them but we really shouldn't be demonizing scam-busters unless their success rate seriously drops off.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
-snip-
As you can see by these words, I am alive and doing well. In fact, that comment is just a proof how flawed the system is. I can prove by an old address that I'm not an impostor, but I simply haven't cared to do something about it as I thought people paid little to no respect to remarks like that.

If you would consider you helping me to prove I'm not an impostor by (a cited, uneditable) sig and do something positive for flawed the system (plausibly staff would remove it then since you are a respected member of the community), I'd appreciate it.
That's not really an example of how flawed it is. Do you know how the justice system works? Unless you prove X, Y is considered to be true. So far you haven't really proven that you're the same account holder, however your trust rating is 0/0.

LaudaM is a respected person, but staff is not going to remove feedback from your account.  Their stated policy is that they don't get involved in such matters.  On my own account I have several feedbacks which are pure nonsense and there's nothing I can do about it.
-snip-
Well thank you for your opinions, however I doubt that I have any power in regards to this. Someone on default trust 1 probably has a lot of influence. What I was trying to tell mmmaybe is that he should not be trying to start the removal discussion within this thread. The current system can't really be removed, but it can be replaced. I'd advise you to try and figure out the right and better implementation and suggest it on this subforum.

I agree with the OP . Vod is here just for leaving negative trusts as far as I have observed . He takes action very rapidly . Ofcourse one negative trust is not going to affect a person having so mmuch positive trusts, but the fact is you have no right to spoil someones profile without a logical reason.
As far as I have observed you make observations rapidly.  Roll Eyes
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