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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 32007. (Read 26471069 times)

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

What.

Leveraged Positions should raise volatility, because they up directional volume in the short term, and then crash it when people are forced to cover.

Especially with high, fixed, interest rates, this can do a real number.

Currently, since USD interest rates are higher than BTC, leveraged positions have a higher potential to lower Bitcoin's price than to raise it. Also, there is no recourse (on the stock market, sometimes, if you "owe" after a margin call, brokers can go after you) for Bitcoin loans. If there were, something as inconsequential as the Silk Road crash could cause a gigantic problem for pretty much everyone involved. There was obviously lots of short pressure, explaining why BTC interest rates suddenly spiked, and the price would decline further, forming an "inverse bubble". But this is all short-based, and a short-based bubble explodes in a far more problematic manner than a long-based bubble. Somebody shorting at the bottom is probably stuck paying interest rates comparable to somebody longing BTC during the long-bubble, which was like 300%. Now, when the bubble bursts, the price went from sub-$100 (even without the a shorting-bubble, with a shorting-bubble it could potentially go much lower) all the way up to $132. Somebody shorting at the bottom is unlikely to cover. Now, Bitcoin is $200. Somebody who shorted 10 BTC at 90 would now owe about 9.6 BTC, and be responsible for paying about 28.8 BTC, just in interest, per year if he doesn't pay it off. A ton of people in such scenarios would be stuck bidding for the same Bitcoins, driving the price up even further, getting each other even further into debt. Now, the brokerage also lost Bitcoins in the short term, as it lent to the people who are currently struggling to pay back that debt. So the demand goes way up, driving the price up, making that debt even bigger.

This is effectively what happened in the great depression, only in reverse, where people were "shorting" the dollar, for stock, when the dollar was backed by gold. Whenever you borrow something deflationary to use leverage to trade a volatile instrument, especially if you're paying high interest rates, you're likely to get screwed badly, especially if that debt doesn't "evaporate", but is actually enforceable.

Except that there is a thing called a margin call. And in Bitfinex case, individuals are the lenders not the brokerage exchange.

And if you did your history lesson you would know that when Bitfinex first opened (Bitfinex 1.0 not the current 2.0 version) they did so right before the April crash. The market crashed over 82% and the main exchange Gox went down.  Even so, the lenders lost only the equivalent of 9% of their loan equity. And that money was paid back by Bitfinex.  

So, I figure if the market crashes 82% and lenders lose 9%, which is the equivalent of about what they make there in a month interest, then these "the sky can fall" predictions are pretty baseless.
First off, the only reason why the lenders lost only 9% is because there aren't that many borrowers.

Consider if there were a ton of borrowers, like the majority of Bitcoin speculators decided to trade on x5 leverage. Suddenly, bubbles form x5 bigger and when they crash, a huge amount of selling occurs due to margin calls, triggering even more crashing. Eventually, the margin calls can't cover the principal any more, and the person is in debt. In Bitfinex's case, the lenders would absorb that loss, and although it would be a pretty sad thing to happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If a brokerage came that actually could enforce that debt, however, then you get stuck into a spiral where the people at the wrong end of the speculation end up owing a sum of Bitcoin or USD that simply doesn't exist on the exchanges, driving the price up and/or down continuously until finally a default occurs.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

What.

Leveraged Positions should raise volatility, because they up directional volume in the short term, and then crash it when people are forced to cover.

Especially with high, fixed, interest rates, this can do a real number.

Currently, since USD interest rates are higher than BTC, leveraged positions have a higher potential to lower Bitcoin's price than to raise it. Also, there is no recourse (on the stock market, sometimes, if you "owe" after a margin call, brokers can go after you) for Bitcoin loans. If there were, something as inconsequential as the Silk Road crash could cause a gigantic problem for pretty much everyone involved. There was obviously lots of short pressure, explaining why BTC interest rates suddenly spiked, and the price would decline further, forming an "inverse bubble". But this is all short-based, and a short-based bubble explodes in a far more problematic manner than a long-based bubble. Somebody shorting at the bottom is probably stuck paying interest rates comparable to somebody longing BTC during the long-bubble, which was like 300%. Now, when the bubble bursts, the price went from sub-$100 (even without the a shorting-bubble, with a shorting-bubble it could potentially go much lower) all the way up to $132. Somebody shorting at the bottom is unlikely to cover. Now, Bitcoin is $200. Somebody who shorted 10 BTC at 90 would now owe about 9.6 BTC, and be responsible for paying about 28.8 BTC, just in interest, per year if he doesn't pay it off. A ton of people in such scenarios would be stuck bidding for the same Bitcoins, driving the price up even further, getting each other even further into debt. Now, the brokerage also lost Bitcoins in the short term, as it lent to the people who are currently struggling to pay back that debt. So the demand goes way up, driving the price up, making that debt even bigger.

This is effectively what happened in the great depression, only in reverse, where people were "shorting" the dollar, for stock, when the dollar was backed by gold. Whenever you borrow something deflationary to use leverage to trade a volatile instrument, especially if you're paying high interest rates, you're likely to get screwed badly, especially if that debt doesn't "evaporate", but is actually enforceable.

Except that there is a thing called a margin call. And in Bitfinex case, individuals are the lenders not the brokerage exchange.

And if you did your history lesson you would know that when Bitfinex first opened (Bitfinex 1.0 not the current 2.0 version) they did so right before the April crash. The market crashed over 82% and the main exchange Gox went down.  Even so, the lenders lost only the equivalent of 9% of their loan equity. And that money was paid back by Bitfinex.  

So, I figure if the market crashes 82% and lenders lose 9%, which is the equivalent of about what they make there in a month interest, then these "the sky can fall" predictions are pretty baseless.

Of course, if BTC goes to 0 then everyone loses. But then that irrelevant and obvious anyway.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

What.

Leveraged Positions should raise volatility, because they up directional volume in the short term, and then crash it when people are forced to cover.

Especially with high, fixed, interest rates, this can do a real number.

Currently, since USD interest rates are higher than BTC, leveraged positions have a higher potential to lower Bitcoin's price than to raise it. Also, there is no recourse (on the stock market, sometimes, if you "owe" after a margin call, brokers can go after you) for Bitcoin loans. If there were, something as inconsequential as the Silk Road crash could cause a gigantic problem for pretty much everyone involved. There was obviously lots of short pressure, explaining why BTC interest rates suddenly spiked, and the price would decline further, forming an "inverse bubble". But this is all short-based, and a short-based bubble explodes in a far more problematic manner than a long-based bubble. Somebody shorting at the bottom is probably stuck paying interest rates comparable to somebody longing BTC during the long-bubble, which was like 300%. Now, when the bubble bursts, the price went from sub-$100 (even without the a shorting-bubble, with a shorting-bubble it could potentially go much lower) all the way up to $132. Somebody shorting at the bottom is unlikely to cover. Now, Bitcoin is $200. Somebody who shorted 10 BTC at 90 would now owe about 9.6 BTC, and be responsible for paying about 28.8 BTC, just in interest, per year if he doesn't pay it off. A ton of people in such scenarios would be stuck bidding for the same Bitcoins, driving the price up even further, getting each other even further into debt. Now, the brokerage also lost Bitcoins in the short term, as it lent to the people who are currently struggling to pay back that debt. So the demand goes way up, driving the price up, making that debt even bigger.

This is effectively what happened in the great depression, only in reverse, where people were "shorting" the dollar, for stock, when the dollar was backed by gold. Whenever you borrow something deflationary to use leverage to trade a volatile instrument, especially if you're paying high interest rates, you're likely to get screwed badly, especially if that debt doesn't "evaporate", but is actually enforceable.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I would speculate that the rally was not fueled by poeple going long, but by shorts covering.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

until a squeeze happens and forced liquidation begins Wink

but thats just a good opt. to take a position so it should all balance out
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

until a squeeze happens and forced liquidation begins Wink
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.
legendary
Activity: 1168
Merit: 1000
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

Quote
One can speculate.. that this rally was fueled by traders being able to take leveraged positions on bitfinex etc. But it is a double edged sword, and now they may use the same force to sell, or go short even.

At least you admit off the bat that you're pulling this out of your ass..

I could say the exact same thing about people with short positions on Bitfinex, and land at the exact opposite conclusion.  Then we'd both be pulling something out of our ass.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
A retest of 175 and then finally catching on and reversing at the old july trendline now at 155. I don't really anticipate it going lower than that but it could be possible with enough momentum.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Ultranode
One can speculate that this rally was fueled by traders being able to take leveraged positions on bitfinex etc. But it is a double edged sword, and now they may use the same force to sell, or go short even.

humor me with some specific price predictions.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
One can speculate that this rally was fueled by traders being able to take leveraged positions on bitfinex etc. But it is a double edged sword, and now they may use the same force to sell, or go short even.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Ultranode
The trend is traders moving to exchanges that are not making any attempt to become FINCEN compliant, which supports my theory that the largest and most active holders of bitcon are criminals/money launderers. US will shut down these exchanges eventually. Then price plummets as the biggest players will no longer be able to manipulate.

It's the same trend of decreasing volume on all major exchanges. Today bitstamp and btcchina were around 10K volume when during earlier rally days they were 30K-60K volume. Btce is now 5K when during rally days it was 40K.

Hi, i would appreciate you not making any statements that conflict with my own. Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
The trend is traders moving to exchanges that are not making any attempt to become FINCEN compliant, which supports my theory that the largest and most active holders of bitcon are criminals/money launderers. US will shut down these exchanges eventually. Then price plummets as the biggest players will no longer be able to manipulate.

It's the same trend of decreasing volume on all major exchanges. Today bitstamp and btcchina were around 10K volume when during earlier rally days they were 30K-60K volume. Btce is now 5K when during rally days it was 40K.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Ultranode
The trend is traders moving to exchanges that are not making any attempt to become FINCEN compliant, which supports my theory that the largest and most active holders of bitcon are criminals/money launderers. US will shut down these exchanges eventually. Then price plummets as the biggest players will no longer be able to manipulate.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
The major news that could cause bitcoin to skyrocket, is if most US banks adopt the JPMorgan Chase policy of not allowing foreign bank wires for individual (non-business) accounts. Coinbase would have a field day, that's for sure.

i think most US banks have already done this

poeple we're posting links of different banks announcing a new similar policy.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
The major news that could cause bitcoin to skyrocket, is if most US banks adopt the JPMorgan Chase policy of not allowing foreign bank wires for individual (non-business) accounts. Coinbase would have a field day, that's for sure.
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