Author

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 32006. (Read 26471070 times)

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 286
Neptune, Scalable Privacy
I'm still thinking the next major news to move the price will not be BTC news. Nothing has been fixed in the world economies and it's just a matter of time until yet another shoe drops.

I think Bitcoin can use a little more time to develop usability and services before shit hits the fan in a big way.

It is never a good time for the sht to hit the fan. But the longer Bitcoin experiences organic growth, the better.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
I have a theory. There is a big player slowly accumulating bitcoins across all of the exchanges. Basically there is a very big, invisible bid wall.

yeah, blind bears... don't you see it? don't you SEE it?
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

yeah, until they don't and the margin calls happen. See late 2011.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
I'm still thinking the next major news to move the price will not be BTC news. Nothing has been fixed in the world economies and it's just a matter of time until yet another shoe drops.

I think Bitcoin can use a little more time to develop usability and services before shit hits the fan in a big way.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
How do bulls feel if we don't break $216 here? Looking like a triple top, then, yes?

I use fundamentals.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
I see the last few days' stability as  the bitcoin train sitting at a station while people are getting on and off. Someday it will leave the station. For a quick hit of nostalgia remember the proudhon song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw

All aboard!



legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Leveraged Positions should raise volatility, because they up directional volume in the short term, and then crash it when people are forced to cover.

Leveraged positions should lower volatility, because the people do not aim to lose all their money, rather make more. Using leverage, they can smooth out the market moves with greater amount of capital than what they possess.

That people with no theoretical framework on what they are doing, and <5 years of trading experience use leverage, cannot end well.
sr. member
Activity: 354
Merit: 250
I see the last few days' stability as  the bitcoin train sitting at a station while people are getting on and off. Someday it will leave the station. For a quick hit of nostalgia remember the proudhon song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 506
Lawd almighty..  4,800btc volume over 24hrs.

Sure everyone else is watching the rabbit in the room..   Roll Eyes

I'll bet Coinbase had more 24hr volume.

Meh, I've got an eye on Stamp and BTCChina, too... but have found they still don't lead as much as Gox. Especially Bitstamp.

Where gox does 'lead' it appears to me to lead like a dog on a retracting leash these days!  It might run on (or suddenly double back) enthusiastically but will soon be pulled up and has to look round to see if the others are following.  And the aggregate of the others appear not to be blindly following.  Often they will follow but sometimes they'll just say 'neh' so gox just wags its tail, forgets where it thought it wanted to go a minute ago and bounds off again in another (or the same) direction Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
Quiet for the most part tonight... little dip under $210.

legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
I have a theory. There is a big player slowly accumulating bitcoins across all of the exchanges. Basically there is a very big, invisible bid wall.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
The market has been moved by $5 to $10 million dollar purchases and these bucket shops have no where near that kind of liquidity.  This isn't like the hilarious bitcoinica days.

Let's see. A bucket shop is: "an unauthorized office for speculating in stocks or currency using the funds of unwitting investors."

So you are saying none of these exchanges are authorized? Not authorized by whom?

And you are saying these exchanges are speculating in currency using the funds of unwitting investors? LOL. Is this seriously what you think?

Ok.

I guess you can wait and do business with Circle once they acquire their registration in all 47 necessary states to go along with their FINCEN compliance.

The rest of us will just unwittingly let these exchanges use our funds.

Or maybe (after reading some of your other posts) I misunderstood you? Were you making some other point?
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
HODL OR DIE
The market has been moved by $5 to $10 million dollar purchases and these bucket shops have no where near that kind of liquidity.  This isn't like the hilarious bitcoinica days.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1801
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
Let's say the snowballing momentum of margin position covers, panic, and shorting causes it to violate its appropriate trendline.  It might catch 130 (weekly ema) and if armageddon happens then  maybe 90 (how low weekly ema was violated in July).



Did you just learn about Bitfinex today?  People have been taking long and short positions on there for some time now.

in theory all the leveraged positions should lower volatility.

What.

Leveraged Positions should raise volatility, because they up directional volume in the short term, and then crash it when people are forced to cover.

Especially with high, fixed, interest rates, this can do a real number.

Currently, since USD interest rates are higher than BTC, leveraged positions have a higher potential to lower Bitcoin's price than to raise it. Also, there is no recourse (on the stock market, sometimes, if you "owe" after a margin call, brokers can go after you) for Bitcoin loans. If there were, something as inconsequential as the Silk Road crash could cause a gigantic problem for pretty much everyone involved. There was obviously lots of short pressure, explaining why BTC interest rates suddenly spiked, and the price would decline further, forming an "inverse bubble". But this is all short-based, and a short-based bubble explodes in a far more problematic manner than a long-based bubble. Somebody shorting at the bottom is probably stuck paying interest rates comparable to somebody longing BTC during the long-bubble, which was like 300%. Now, when the bubble bursts, the price went from sub-$100 (even without the a shorting-bubble, with a shorting-bubble it could potentially go much lower) all the way up to $132. Somebody shorting at the bottom is unlikely to cover. Now, Bitcoin is $200. Somebody who shorted 10 BTC at 90 would now owe about 9.6 BTC, and be responsible for paying about 28.8 BTC, just in interest, per year if he doesn't pay it off. A ton of people in such scenarios would be stuck bidding for the same Bitcoins, driving the price up even further, getting each other even further into debt. Now, the brokerage also lost Bitcoins in the short term, as it lent to the people who are currently struggling to pay back that debt. So the demand goes way up, driving the price up, making that debt even bigger.

This is effectively what happened in the great depression, only in reverse, where people were "shorting" the dollar, for stock, when the dollar was backed by gold. Whenever you borrow something deflationary to use leverage to trade a volatile instrument, especially if you're paying high interest rates, you're likely to get screwed badly, especially if that debt doesn't "evaporate", but is actually enforceable.

Except that there is a thing called a margin call. And in Bitfinex case, individuals are the lenders not the brokerage exchange.

And if you did your history lesson you would know that when Bitfinex first opened (Bitfinex 1.0 not the current 2.0 version) they did so right before the April crash. The market crashed over 82% and the main exchange Gox went down.  Even so, the lenders lost only the equivalent of 9% of their loan equity. And that money was paid back by Bitfinex.  

So, I figure if the market crashes 82% and lenders lose 9%, which is the equivalent of about what they make there in a month interest, then these "the sky can fall" predictions are pretty baseless.
First off, the only reason why the lenders lost only 9% is because there aren't that many borrowers.

Consider if there were a ton of borrowers, like the majority of Bitcoin speculators decided to trade on x5 leverage. Suddenly, bubbles form x5 bigger and when they crash, a huge amount of selling occurs due to margin calls, triggering even more crashing. Eventually, the margin calls can't cover the principal any more, and the person is in debt. In Bitfinex's case, the lenders would absorb that loss, and although it would be a pretty sad thing to happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If a brokerage came that actually could enforce that debt, however, then you get stuck into a spiral where the people at the wrong end of the speculation end up owing a sum of Bitcoin or USD that simply doesn't exist on the exchanges, driving the price up and/or down continuously until finally a default occurs.

Well, consider if the sun collides with the moon. Why are we considering something that is never going to happen. The case you are making is some hypothetical extreme. We are getting more parity in exchanges and will continue to do so. Only a few will be traders and only a few of them will use margin.

And why would a brokerage come out and take some huge risk on margin giveaways? Then the brokerage defaults if something goes bad. Again, thats why there are margin calls.
Jump to: