Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 32017.

notme

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1002

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:36:14 PM

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:31:12 PM

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:28:57 PM

The word "fiat" means a decree or a dictate thus indicating a central authority. This does obviously not apply to Bitcoin or bitcoins and we should thus, in my opinion, avoid linking the word "fiat" with bitcoins.

No, I will not avoid "linking" the word fiat with Bitcoin because that is what Bitcoin or any other currency that has no intrinsic value is. Fiat. You may not like that and even choose only the definitions that support your position, but it is what it is. Fiat.

I am not picking definitions at will. Fiat means decree thus indicating central authority. I tried to be polite but:
http://goo.gl/fQX918

And he is using the definition from wikipedia's "Fiat Money" page. I'm not saying I agree with him, but he already linked to his definition, so linking to a conflicting definition won't get you anywhere.

neutrinox

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

1MCKW9AkWj3aopC1aPegcZEf2fYNrhUQVf

Here's why we shouldn't be too worried about bitcoin being "ruined" by allowing US government to track it:

1. It will help bitcoin go mainstream and give it a better reputation among laymen
2. This means all those investing in bitcoin will become filthy rich
3. Liberals, anarchists and those who need bitcoin for criminal use will just develop an alt-coin with focus around anonymity
4. US government looses. It has made bitcoin mainstream without gaining any real benefits (because of the alts).

Sword Smith

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 286

Neptune, Scalable Privacy

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:31:12 PM

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:28:57 PM

The word "fiat" means a decree or a dictate thus indicating a central authority. This does obviously not apply to Bitcoin or bitcoins and we should thus, in my opinion, avoid linking the word "fiat" with bitcoins.

No, I will not avoid "linking" the word fiat with Bitcoin because that is what Bitcoin or any other currency that has no intrinsic value is. Fiat. You may not like that and even choose only the definitions that support your position, but it is what it is. Fiat.

I am not picking definitions at will. Fiat means decree thus indicating central authority. I tried to be polite but:
http://goo.gl/fQX918

barbs

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1000

what's gox doing? stamp on a bull run, gox chilling, china going ape

Coinseeker

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:28:57 PM

The word "fiat" means a decree or a dictate thus indicating a central authority. This does obviously not apply to Bitcoin or bitcoins and we should thus, in my opinion, avoid linking the word "fiat" with bitcoins.

No, I will not avoid "linking" the word fiat with Bitcoin because that is what Bitcoin or any other currency that has no intrinsic value is. Fiat. You may not like that and even choose only the definitions that support your position, but it is what it is. Fiat.

Sword Smith

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 286

Neptune, Scalable Privacy

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:24:19 PM

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:21:06 PM

2) The word you are looking for is "fiduciary". "Fiat" means "let it be" and thus means that someone is in control.

fiat
ˈfiːat,ˈfʌɪat/
noun
1.
a formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
"the reforms left most prices fixed by government fiat"

Fiat money has been defined variously as:
any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[1]
state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[2]
money without intrinsic value.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Ok. Arguing over definitions is usually stupid. That is a semantic discussion and what one should usually seek is a logical discussion. But I think this discussion merits some attention none the less since is important that we are able to use the right words to describe Bitcoin and bitcoins.

The word "fiat" means a decree or a dictate thus indicating a central authority. This does obviously not apply to Bitcoin or bitcoins and we should thus, in my opinion, avoid linking the word "fiat" with bitcoins.

(and the bitcoin protocol (and thus bitcoins) has intrinsic value since it can be used as a tool - namely a timestamp - just like gold can be used in electrical devices and teeth - intrinsic value. But this is a seperate discussion to the discussion of the word "fiat".)

Coinseeker

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: barbs on November 14, 2013, 05:25:04 PM

are you bullish or bearish on the current bit coin price? i can't tell

That's not surprising given the fact, we weren't talking about the price of Bitcoin. Roll Eyes

barbs

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:24:19 PM

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:21:06 PM

2) The word you are looking for is "fiduciary". "Fiat" means "let it be" and thus means that someone is in control.

fiat
ˈfiːat,ˈfʌɪat/
noun
1.
a formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
"the reforms left most prices fixed by government fiat"

Fiat money has been defined variously as:
any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[1]
state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[2]
money without intrinsic value.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

are you bullish or bearish on the current bit coin price? i can't tell

Coinseeker

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: Sword Smith on November 14, 2013, 05:21:06 PM

2) The word you are looking for is "fiduciary". "Fiat" means "let it be" and thus means that someone is in control.

fiat
ˈfiːat,ˈfʌɪat/
noun
1.
a formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
"the reforms left most prices fixed by government fiat"

Fiat money has been defined variously as:
any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[1]
state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[2]
money without intrinsic value.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Bitcoin has ZERO value, except what we all agree it is worth. Just like USD. In fact, given the fabric USD is printed on, it's fair to say USD is actually "worth" more.

Coinseeker

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: Davyd05 on November 14, 2013, 05:17:39 PM

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:15:33 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on November 14, 2013, 04:59:57 PM

What law in what country says that someone wholly or partly has to use bitcoin?

It's obvious you misunderstand the full definition of "fiat". Fiat can be a government issued currency but it also is defined as a currency with no intrinsic value. Bitcoin, like USD, only has value because we agree that it does. Thus Bitcoin is simply another form of fiat currency. Bitcoin though, is not debt based. So thats good.

Also not centralized

I'd say there are alot of advantages over government fiat.

Sword Smith

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 286

Neptune, Scalable Privacy

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:15:33 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on November 14, 2013, 04:59:57 PM

What law in what country says that someone wholly or partly has to use bitcoin?

It's obvious you misunderstand the full definition of "fiat". Fiat can be a government issued currency but it also is defined as a currency with no intrinsic value.

1) Bitcoin as a protocol has intrinsic value. As a time stamp and as base-protocol for Mastercoin.
2) The word you are looking for is "fiduciary". "Fiat" means "let it be" and thus means that someone is in control.

fiat
ˈfiːat,ˈfʌɪat/
noun
1.
a formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
"the reforms left most prices fixed by government fiat"

rampantparanoia

sr. member

Activity: 516

Merit: 283

Quote from: freethink2013 on November 14, 2013, 05:00:33 PM

Quote from: ardana123 on November 14, 2013, 04:57:54 PM

http://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=955322cc-d648-4a00-a41f-c23be8ff4cad

Tuesday, November 19, 2013
03:30 PM - 05:30 AM

Is that a typo or what? Or do they actually hold hearings through the night until 5:30 in the morning?

It was supposed to stop at 9pm but they got a bit carried away with the silk road exhibits.

LOL. "Hey man, try licking this stamp. It says 'bit' on it!"

Davyd05

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: Coinseeker on November 14, 2013, 05:15:33 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on November 14, 2013, 04:59:57 PM

What law in what country says that someone wholly or partly has to use bitcoin?

It's obvious you misunderstand the full definition of "fiat". Fiat can be a government issued currency but it also is defined as a currency with no intrinsic value. Bitcoin, like USD, only has value because we agree that it does. Thus Bitcoin is simply another form of fiat currency. Bitcoin though, is not debt based. So thats good.

Also not centralized

Coinseeker

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: Erdogan on November 14, 2013, 04:59:57 PM

What law in what country says that someone wholly or partly has to use bitcoin?

It's obvious you misunderstand the full definition of "fiat". Fiat can be a government issued currency but it also is defined as a currency with no intrinsic value. Bitcoin, like USD, only has value because we agree that it does. Thus Bitcoin is simply another form of fiat currency. Bitcoin though, is not debt based. So thats good.

thezerg

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1010

US and Europe want to go down but China says NO! Cheesy

Coinseeker

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: cfrm on November 14, 2013, 04:54:11 PM

All the bears, who didn't catch the train at 350 or less, are now building a narrative of a 'big risk' of the goverment shutting down Bitcoin, as if it was feasible. My guess is absolutely nothing will happen from government side as a result of the hearing. Politics and law-making takes time, and everyday the Bitcoin-infrastucture and knowledge is growing. No politicians will want to attempt shutting down Bitcoin as it would be widely covered (resulting in bad PR), and there really is no legimate reason for trying to do so. + they would likely fail.

So, there is no scenario where politicians claim Bitcoin is used for terror and it's 'game over'. What a ridiculous claim.

I think the last thing Congress is worried about is bad PR. They have an approval rate of what, 7%? In the end they serve the banks and the tech behind Bitcoin does at least represent a potential threat to their debt based monopoly.

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: Vycid on November 14, 2013, 02:53:10 PM

Quote from: BarkinTree on November 14, 2013, 02:42:57 PM

Quote from: Vycid on November 14, 2013, 02:36:40 PM

Quote from: TERA on November 14, 2013, 02:29:26 PM

Why do people assume that this is going to be another march/April style 800% bubble? You are forgetting that back then the time in between the last ATH of $32 was an entire 2 years of consolidation. This time it was only 6 months. Were likely to see a 2012 style increase instead.

Uh, because it's already quite clearly proven itself not to be 2012 style. Look at a graph again.

youre not actually illustrating what you are saying. can you show us why it is not like 2012? you can't see price action in 2012 on that graph.

You should know I slaved away in Paint to bring you this.

This is quite funny! Yes, it feels like 2012, but it happened in 2013, only seven months ago.

bassclef

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: cfrm on November 14, 2013, 04:54:11 PM

All the bears, who didn't catch the train at 350 or less, are now building a narrative of a 'big risk' of the goverment shutting down Bitcoin, as if it was feasible. My guess is absolutely nothing will happen from government side as a result of the hearing. Politics and law-making takes time, and everyday the Bitcoin-infrastucture and knowledge is growing. No politicians will want to attempt shutting down Bitcoin as it would be widely covered (resulting in bad PR), and there really is no legimate reason for trying to do so. + they would likely fail.

So, there is no scenario where politicians claim Bitcoin is used for terror and it's 'game over'. What a ridiculous claim.

You're right, the Senate will not decide anything at the hearing. It's for publicity and education purposes.

What's got people worried is Mike Hearn is pushing for coin blacklists. He's a lead developer, but probably not for long.

ChartBuddy

legendary

Activity: 2380

Merit: 1823