Disclaimer: I know nothing about EFTs and TLDR the Winklevii document.
I wonder what the tax implications of the Winklevii moving their BTC into this EFT trust are. They would not need to pay any capital gains tax, since they've not realised their profits. But what about the shares they are selling?
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 32781. (Read 26468991 times)
July 02, 2013, 11:42:25 AM
July 02, 2013, 11:42:06 AM
I don't get it they are selling paper bitcoins that can't be redeemed for BTC 
July 02, 2013, 11:39:41 AM
The proposed ETF is a positive statement of intent IMO. The Winkelvii aren't going anywhere. They're market making.
Bitcoin is not nearly liquid enough for big players. A listed ETF could represent a bona fide, legit trading opportunity (notwithstanding taxes and fees - which, incidently, evidence legitimacy!)
Bitcoin is not nearly liquid enough for big players. A listed ETF could represent a bona fide, legit trading opportunity (notwithstanding taxes and fees - which, incidently, evidence legitimacy!)
+1 Good to see there are still people with common sense around.
July 02, 2013, 11:29:37 AM
The proposed ETF is a positive statement of intent IMO. The Winkelvii aren't going anywhere. They're market making.
Bitcoin is not nearly liquid enough for big players. A listed ETF could represent a bona fide, legit trading opportunity (notwithstanding taxes and fees - which, incidently, evidence legitimacy!)
Bitcoin is not nearly liquid enough for big players. A listed ETF could represent a bona fide, legit trading opportunity (notwithstanding taxes and fees - which, incidently, evidence legitimacy!)
July 02, 2013, 11:13:45 AM
Quote
it's an IQ test. Bitcoin is anonymous, untaxed (for now) and quite liquid in and of its own right despite all the complexities of a cryptocurrency. A bitcoin ETF is taxed, has fees, may or may not be liquid at all. So, this is really a test: do you want to facilitate the exit of the Winkelvii from an investment at inflated levels which they will soon be taxed upon or do you want to sit this hand out?
http://www.businessinsider.com/one-paragraph-that-totally-destroys-the-winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-2013-7
Quote
Someone on one of Team Macro Man's chats recently described this ETF as a Rorschach test of what people think of digital currencies. That is utterly wrong: it's an IQ test. Bitcoin is anonymous, untaxed (for now) and quite liquid in and of its own right despite all the complexities of a cryptocurrency. A bitcoin ETF is taxed, has fees, may or may not be liquid at all. So, this is really a test: do you want to facilitate the exit of the Winkelvii from an investment at inflated levels which they will soon be taxed upon or do you want to sit this hand out?
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/one-paragraph-that-totally-destroys-the-winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-2013-7#ixzz2XtwpGV9s
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/one-paragraph-that-totally-destroys-the-winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-2013-7#ixzz2XtwpGV9s
So much truth in the quote above
July 02, 2013, 11:13:25 AM
This will make it possible for investors who don't dare to (or can't) hold BTC or deal with "shady exchanges" to purchase and invest in bitcoin the most legitime way. If I understand this right, the winklevoss twins are essentially selling their bitcoins to an audience which normally wouldn't buy bitcoin. So all those coins sold to this group, means there are now less coins on the market. As new shares are issued and the winklevoss sells out, they will accumelate new USD which they can use to purchase back their original holdings and additional bitcoins.
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
BTC doesn't need more speculators. Speculators dump coins in panic the moment the market looks bad. We need a fucking proper bitcoin economy that isn't based off the sale of drugs.
July 02, 2013, 11:11:00 AM
This will make it possible for investors who don't dare to (or can't) hold BTC or deal with "shady exchanges" to purchase and invest in bitcoin the most legitime way. If I understand this right, the winklevoss twins are essentially selling their bitcoins to an audience which normally wouldn't buy bitcoin. So all those coins sold to this group, means there are now less coins on the market. As new shares are issued and the winklevoss sells out, they will accumelate new USD which they can use to purchase back their original holdings and additional bitcoins.
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
BTC doesn't need more speculators. Speculators dump coins in panic the moment the market looks bad. We need a fucking proper bitcoin economy that isn't based off the sale of drugs.
Well, keep dreaming. Bitcoin is more a store of value and a commodity-like, speculative asset.
Bitcoin is unbeatable at something: it cannot be seized, it cannot be intercepted, is pseudo-anonymous. A service like Silk Road couldn't exist without it. Now tell me, what kind of other service couldn't exist without Bitcoin?
For a lot of day-by-day uses, Paypal (and Credit Cards) do a good job. For Silk Road, they don't. And there you have a real crypto-currency killer app. Without it, that business model is not viable.
Still, the "real economy" surrounding precious metals is minuscule compared to their role as store of value/speculative assets. If Bitcoin succeeds, count on it playing a similar role, being its store of value/speculative use much more relevant that its "real economy" applications.
July 02, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
Quote
it's an IQ test. Bitcoin is anonymous, untaxed (for now) and quite liquid in and of its own right despite all the complexities of a cryptocurrency. A bitcoin ETF is taxed, has fees, may or may not be liquid at all. So, this is really a test: do you want to facilitate the exit of the Winkelvii from an investment at inflated levels which they will soon be taxed upon or do you want to sit this hand out?
http://www.businessinsider.com/one-paragraph-that-totally-destroys-the-winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-2013-7
July 02, 2013, 11:01:12 AM
July 02, 2013, 10:57:16 AM
The VV twins ETF can only be positive for the price of bitcoins. One - the publicity, and two - the spread of the shares to new users.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The Winklevoss twins claim to insulate investors from the credit risk. bullshit! How are they doing that exactly? If MtGox is shut down or goes bankrupt, the price of BTC will plummet by 80%, and so will the corresponding ETF shares idiot investors are holding.
Investors are better off buying BTC from the exchange and putting on a thumb drive in their safe - and save themselves the 2-5% maintenance fee.
In my opinion, the Winklevoss brothers are launching this now because they see the price of BTC going down, know they can't get out of their position without crashing the market, and so are selling "shares" on BTC in hopes of getting enough money out before it crashes.
You are missing a huge point. There are trillions of dollars in the retail market that can NOT be used to buy bitcoins directly. As it stands now you can NOT use your 401k or IRA funds to buy bitcoins. Pension funds can NOT use their funds to buy bitcoins. An ETF will add much more then the current ~$20 million of market depth to back up the price. The ETF will set the price.
Well, let's be clear, no fund manager is going to offer BTC ETF on a 401K portfolio list. If someone has a self-managed IRA where they can invest in anything, they would need to have a huge risk appetite to invest in BTC. If they did discover it somehow and did research, why wouldn't they buy direct and avoid taxation on earnings?
Because IRAs aren't taxed until you withdraw from them and a huge number of people just have their IRA as savings, and nothing else, because, who knew, the rest got taxxed away. ~.~
July 02, 2013, 10:48:10 AM
This will make it possible for investors who don't dare to (or can't) hold BTC or deal with "shady exchanges" to purchase and invest in bitcoin the most legitime way. If I understand this right, the winklevoss twins are essentially selling their bitcoins to an audience which normally wouldn't buy bitcoin. So all those coins sold to this group, means there are now less coins on the market. As new shares are issued and the winklevoss sells out, they will accumelate new USD which they can use to purchase back their original holdings and additional bitcoins.
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
BTC doesn't need more speculators. Speculators dump coins in panic the moment the market looks bad. We need a fucking proper bitcoin economy that isn't based off the sale of drugs.
In the WV document this is explicitly mentioned - price is based on speculation and not enough adaptation is happening yet. However, this will bring PR - the second bubble also ignited new business ideas and VC
July 02, 2013, 10:44:51 AM
This will make it possible for investors who don't dare to (or can't) hold BTC or deal with "shady exchanges" to purchase and invest in bitcoin the most legitime way. If I understand this right, the winklevoss twins are essentially selling their bitcoins to an audience which normally wouldn't buy bitcoin. So all those coins sold to this group, means there are now less coins on the market. As new shares are issued and the winklevoss sells out, they will accumelate new USD which they can use to purchase back their original holdings and additional bitcoins.
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
BTC doesn't need more speculators. Speculators dump coins in panic the moment the market looks bad. We need a fucking proper bitcoin economy that isn't based off the sale of drugs.
July 02, 2013, 10:40:48 AM
The VV twins ETF can only be positive for the price of bitcoins. One - the publicity, and two - the spread of the shares to new users.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The Winklevoss twins claim to insulate investors from the credit risk. bullshit! How are they doing that exactly? If MtGox is shut down or goes bankrupt, the price of BTC will plummet by 80%, and so will the corresponding ETF shares idiot investors are holding.
Investors are better off buying BTC from the exchange and putting on a thumb drive in their safe - and save themselves the 2-5% maintenance fee.
In my opinion, the Winklevoss brothers are launching this now because they see the price of BTC going down, know they can't get out of their position without crashing the market, and so are selling "shares" on BTC in hopes of getting enough money out before it crashes.
You are missing a huge point. There are trillions of dollars in the retail market that can NOT be used to buy bitcoins directly. As it stands now you can NOT use your 401k or IRA funds to buy bitcoins. Pension funds can NOT use their funds to buy bitcoins. An ETF will add much more then the current ~$20 million of market depth to back up the price. The ETF will set the price.
Well, let's be clear, no fund manager is going to offer BTC ETF on a 401K portfolio list. If someone has a self-managed IRA where they can invest in anything, they would need to have a huge risk appetite to invest in BTC. If they did discover it somehow and did research, why wouldn't they buy direct and avoid taxation on earnings?
July 02, 2013, 10:39:35 AM
This will make it possible for investors who don't dare to (or can't) hold BTC or deal with "shady exchanges" to purchase and invest in bitcoin the most legitime way. If I understand this right, the winklevoss twins are essentially selling their bitcoins to an audience which normally wouldn't buy bitcoin. So all those coins sold to this group, means there are now less coins on the market. As new shares are issued and the winklevoss sells out, they will accumelate new USD which they can use to purchase back their original holdings and additional bitcoins.
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
It looks like a very bullish sign to me. The biggest concern is that it would probably take months or years to be approved by the regulators (if ever).
July 02, 2013, 10:32:17 AM
The VV twins ETF can only be positive for the price of bitcoins. One - the publicity, and two - the spread of the shares to new users.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The Winklevoss twins claim to insulate investors from the credit risk. bullshit! How are they doing that exactly? If MtGox is shut down or goes bankrupt, the price of BTC will plummet by 80%, and so will the corresponding ETF shares idiot investors are holding.
Investors are better off buying BTC from the exchange and putting on a thumb drive in their safe - and save themselves the 2-5% maintenance fee.
In my opinion, the Winklevoss brothers are launching this now because they see the price of BTC going down, know they can't get out of their position without crashing the market, and so are selling "shares" on BTC in hopes of getting enough money out before it crashes.
You are missing a huge point. There are trillions of dollars in the retail market that can NOT be used to buy bitcoins directly. As it stands now you can NOT use your 401k or IRA funds to buy bitcoins. Pension funds can NOT use their funds to buy bitcoins. An ETF will add much more then the current ~$20 million of market depth to back up the price. The ETF will set the price.
July 02, 2013, 10:21:39 AM
The VV twins ETF can only be positive for the price of bitcoins. One - the publicity, and two - the spread of the shares to new users.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The ETF does not represent money supply increase, since the ETF shares are fully backed.
If the twins sell all the shares, keeping none to themselves, they have dollars to buy another 100K coins.
The Winklevoss twins claim to insulate investors from the credit risk. bullshit! How are they doing that exactly? If MtGox is shut down or goes bankrupt, the price of BTC will plummet by 80%, and so will the corresponding ETF shares idiot investors are holding.
Investors are better off buying BTC from the exchange and putting on a thumb drive in their safe - and save themselves the 2-5% maintenance fee.
In my opinion, the Winklevoss brothers are launching this now because they see the price of BTC going down, know they can't get out of their position without crashing the market, and so are selling "shares" on BTC in hopes of getting enough money out before it crashes.
July 02, 2013, 10:01:30 AM
July 02, 2013, 09:46:51 AM
That brought things back down quick. Notice the volume.
I agree ...
Edit: much of BTC above $ 93 and very few above the $ 86 ...
July 02, 2013, 09:46:23 AM
That brought things back down quick. Notice the volume.
whats name of this site ?
Great to monitor the wall, nice real time updates...
http://trading.i286.org/
Thank you verry much
July 02, 2013, 09:45:47 AM
That brought things back down quick. Notice the volume.
whats name of this site ?
Great to monitor the wall, nice real time updates...
http://trading.i286.org/
Jump to: