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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 32960. (Read 26609652 times)

legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley
Why do you want to encourage spending?
Because the faster we use up our natural resources and pollute the planet, the better?
Spending money is identical to spending resources?  Oy vey.
Are you saying there is no correlation there?

You're joking?  I can guarantee that earth's finite resources are not depleted when you pay for gold or my fine whores.  Or milk, or stocks, or other currencies, or art, or digital goods or pretty much anything short of commodities which you intend to destroy. Smiley


Right.....  because buying gold does not increase gold prices, thereby making gold mining more profitable, there increasing the amount of gold being mined, thereby consuming oil, extracting gold from the earth and doing cyanide leaching and shit.   Oy vey indeed.

PS: I like gold as a monetary asset, but I would prefer it if there was no below-ground stock.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I'd say the $97 - $100 area is key. If we can rally above that then we have broken the lower high downtrend. But as of now and as long as we stay below around the $100 area (technically our last lower high was around $110) we are still in a downtrend.



My money is on downtrend.

Taking profit for now, as even if $95-100 is broken in this epic bull trap, I would expect a pullback.

I was hoping to see the bearest of bears join us to complete the trap, but alas.
(Blitz, why didn't you join us?)  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
What is most troubling is the widespread belief that human nature is malleable; that somehow once people who have adopted bitcoin get to run the show that it will be any different. I am the first person to complain about the excesses of the current establishment and the widespread systemic problems in nearly every aspect of western (global?) society. However, putting a different group of humans in charge will not drastically change the outcome. History is not linear and despite popular belief, human nature does not progress. 'Science and Technology are cumulative, ethics and politics are recurring dilemmas' (John Gray).  This type of thinking isn't exclusive to users of bitcoin, but, unsurprisingly, there seems to be a particularly large contingent of believers in the impending utopia, borne from technological progress.

Bit off topic, but I typically get carried away once I get on my soapbox.

I think you have some excellent points, but it is important to note that we are not just putting 'different people' in charge, we are changing the framework by which money creation and financial transactions occur.  I believe changing a framework càn have profound consequences.

By the way, theoretically, I would say that human nature does evolve, just very very very slowly, and only after certain "evolutionary incentives" change.

I think people don't understand human nature, or misinterpret a more complex version of it, it is at the heart to seek pleasure avoid pain.  To that end given the wrong information or misguided into blaming the other for your suffering, great evil can be perpetrated, and human nature manipulated.

@ mrbrt link nothing needs to change in human nature, it is perfect*, where the lack in society is, is our collective immune system has not evolved enough to reject infectious parasites. (*how human nature is improved is through the use of empathy [the golden rule] and reason in predicting what will result in pleasure or pain.   Understanding that if I chose to pleasure myself at the expense of others (lack of empathy) I am acutely causing pain which will result in resentment and pain for me, and so what is wrong is we build walls and laws to allow this resentment to build up.)

There is just one mechanism that is responsible for the greatest suffering on earth today, it is the eroding the wealth from the poor (and the producers) to benefit the wealthy, and it is built into the heart of our society. It is the meme that a fixed unit of exchange is how you trade your labour and smarts for wealth. (they lie is that is not the money we use )

This mechanism is the Cantillon Effect, the result of which creates poverty by creating new money, ironically controlled moderate monetary inflation is very thing economists insist ensures prosperous growth.

With a Bitcoin, human nature isn't affected (well it is if you read this tread so we should get back to watching for walls) but the mechanism (Cantillon Effect)  that forces slavery and creates poverty is eliminated allowing something new to develop.  
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 100
I don't know, how it will be, but maybe you're online-banking-account will have access to your btc-exchange. I would like that.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 100


IAS: I think it was you who responded to the bitcoin.de and Fidor Bank deal. It's even better. This is first direct banking cooperation in the European Bitcoin sector (or worldwide?) and not only in Germany. Smiley Just imagine.. a full blown Bitcoin exchange, backed up by Germany's bank standard. Fast conversation between EUR and BTC, no more waiting time to deposit or withdrawal. The ultimate dream would be a debit card which can be refilled with Bitcoin.. but let's see, how things turn out. Wink

Yes, it was me. Do you know when people can start using the bank? I haven't seen that anywhere. I imagine this will affect Bitstamp (depending on the interface) as the banking system, as bad as it is, is pretty sound in Germany and I think many people using Bitstamp, have the Slovanian bank they use in the back of their minds.

As I know in some weeks. Maybe technical thing, maybe tribute to bureaucracy ... the users with a fidor account could trade in realtime, without it would not be possible soon. By now Fidor allows customer to buy and sell gold and silver and flips (hitflip). 
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley
Why do you want to encourage spending?
Because the faster we use up our natural resources and pollute the planet, the better?
Spending money is identical to spending resources?  Oy vey.
Are you saying there is no correlation there?

You're joking?  I can guarantee that earth's finite resources are not depleted when you pay for gold or my fine whores.  Or milk, or stocks, or other currencies, or art, or digital goods or pretty much anything short of commodities which you intend to destroy. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
IAS: I think it was you who responded to the bitcoin.de and Fidor Bank deal. It's even better. This is first direct banking cooperation in the European Bitcoin sector (or worldwide?) and not only in Germany. Smiley Just imagine.. a full blown Bitcoin exchange, backed up by Germany's bank standard. Fast conversation between EUR and BTC, no more waiting time to deposit or withdrawal. The ultimate dream would be a debit card which can be refilled with Bitcoin.. but let's see, how things turn out. Wink

Bitcoin-central had a deal with a european bank too, no?  Or is this arrangement of a different kind?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1026
Yes, it was me. Do you know when people can start using the bank? I haven't seen that anywhere. I imagine this will affect Bitstamp (depending on the interface) as the banking system, as bad as it is, is pretty sound in Germany and I think many people using Bitstamp, have the Slovanian bank they use in the back of their minds.

Sorry, no. I only have the same information as you from bitcoin.de (in English, in German). I didn't do my homework on Fidor Bank also, but I noticed them because of their wide social media marketing some time ago.

Though I emailed Fidor Bank on sunday and asked about Bitcoin. This was without knowing about the bitcoin.de deal and I ask companies regularly about their opinion about Bitcoin. This is what I received:

Quote
Sehr geehrter Herr dexX7,

vielen Dank für Ihre E-Mail und Ihren Vorschlag.

Wir beobachten das Phänomen Bitcoin sehr interessiert. Zum aktuellen Zeitpunkt evaluieren wir, inwieweit eine Aufnahme in das Angebot erfolgen könnte.  Es ist also nicht ausgeschlossen, dass es  irgendwann Bitcoins bei Fidor geben könnte. Wir sind dran...

Quote
Dear Mr. dexX7,

thanks for your email and your suggestion.

We are watching the phenomena Bitcoin with much interest. At the moment we evaluate how an integration into our product portfolio could be done. It is therefore not ruled out that there will be Bitcoins at Fidor someday. We are on it...
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley
Why do you want to encourage spending?

Because the faster we use up our natural resources and pollute the planet, the better?

Spending money is identical to spending resources?  Oy vey.

Are you saying there is no correlation there?
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley
Why do you want to encourage spending?

Because the faster we use up our natural resources and pollute the planet, the better?

Spending money is identical to spending resources?  Oy vey.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile


IAS: I think it was you who responded to the bitcoin.de and Fidor Bank deal. It's even better. This is first direct banking cooperation in the European Bitcoin sector (or worldwide?) and not only in Germany. Smiley Just imagine.. a full blown Bitcoin exchange, backed up by Germany's bank standard. Fast conversation between EUR and BTC, no more waiting time to deposit or withdrawal. The ultimate dream would be a debit card which can be refilled with Bitcoin.. but let's see, how things turn out. Wink

Yes, it was me. Do you know when people can start using the bank? I haven't seen that anywhere. I imagine this will affect Bitstamp (depending on the interface) as the banking system, as bad as it is, is pretty sound in Germany and I think many people using Bitstamp, have the Slovanian bank they use in the back of their minds.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley

Why do you want to encourage spending? Need to destroy some of that huge amount of cash you've printed up and given to your banker friends by getting the people they lend it to to feed it into some bubble or other?

I don't want to do any such thing -- my question was directed at molecular's claim that bitcoins trend to flow from higher to lower concentrations -- from the hands of the rich to the hands of the poor.  Take it up with him Smiley

Edit:  can't have dispersion without something flowing, can't distribute BTC without spending Wink
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
I'm not talking about spending as in the bare necessities like hookers & blow, i meant spending which could be avoided -- lending for profit, investing, "spending money to make money," the boring stuff.  I simply don't see how molecular believes that Bitcoin is bound to disperse wealth. (Bitcoin:  Champion of the poor.)  If anything, once you discount extremes (one person owns every bitcoin), nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley

I believe the reasoning is that it would remove unfair advantages and wealth distribution to big banks (special loan conditions, cantillon effect etc.), plus the fact that middle-class families tend to have a larger percentage of their savings in inflation-sensitive fiat, whereas rich people can more easily diversify in the housing market, etc. .

If it wasn't for days like yesterday on MtGox, i'd have to dig deeper for proof of the opposite. Smiley  But, in all seriousness, while the rich have a definite edge in finance [ Shocked ], the advantage only grows with deflationary currency [textbook stuff here].  BTW, my question was much shallower & simpler:  If wealth tends to disperse in Bitcoin economy, and I'm looking to get rich (be a node of wealth concentration), it seems to follow that backing Bitcoin is not in my best interest.  I think.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1026
90 is a hard resistance, but I'd say, 90 can be broken soon and somewhere between 78-82 might be the last chance to buy low, if at all.




IAS: I think it was you who responded to the bitcoin.de and Fidor Bank deal. It's even better. This is first direct banking cooperation in the European Bitcoin sector (or worldwide?) and not only in Germany. Smiley Just imagine.. a full blown Bitcoin exchange, backed up by Germany's bank standard. Fast conversation between EUR and BTC, no more waiting time to deposit or withdrawal. The ultimate dream would be a debit card which can be refilled with Bitcoin.. but let's see, how things turn out. Wink
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley
Why do you want to encourage spending?

Because the faster we use up our natural resources and pollute the planet, the better?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
I think you have some excellent points, but it is important to note that we are not just putting 'different people' in charge,


We won't even be putting different people in charge. We'll just be removing an option they use to exploit the people they're "in charge" of.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley

Why do you want to encourage spending? Need to destroy some of that huge amount of cash you've printed up and given to your banker friends by getting the people they lend it to to feed it into some bubble or other?
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile


I really think this chart is key. Lower highs and lower lows have not really been broken since the April 24th rise. (There is one slight cross from the beginning of May and early June, but just a few dollars off.) The lower highs have thus far been consistently lower, just eying it around $10 each time.

I'd say the $97 - $100 area is key. If we can rally above that then we have broken the lower high downtrend. But as of now and as long as we stay below around the $100 area (technically our last lower high was around $110) we are still in a downtrend.

What do you TA guys think of the lower high and lower low consistency in your experience? I understand BTC is a different animal.


legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
I'm not talking about spending as in the bare necessities like hookers & blow, i meant spending which could be avoided -- lending for profit, investing, "spending money to make money," the boring stuff.  I simply don't see how molecular believes that Bitcoin is bound to disperse wealth. (Bitcoin:  Champion of the poor.)  If anything, once you discount extremes (one person owns every bitcoin), nothing encourages spending like inflation Smiley

I believe the reasoning is that it would remove unfair advantages and wealth distribution to big banks (special loan conditions, cantillon effect etc.), plus the fact that middle-class families tend to have a larger percentage of their savings in inflation-sensitive fiat, whereas rich people can more easily diversify in the housing market, etc. .
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
What is most troubling is the widespread belief that human nature is malleable; that somehow once people who have adopted bitcoin get to run the show that it will be any different. I am the first person to complain about the excesses of the current establishment and the widespread systemic problems in nearly every aspect of western (global?) society. However, putting a different group of humans in charge will not drastically change the outcome. History is not linear and despite popular belief, human nature does not progress. 'Science and Technology are cumulative, ethics and politics are recurring dilemmas' (John Gray).  This type of thinking isn't exclusive to users of bitcoin, but, unsurprisingly, there seems to be a particularly large contingent of believers in the impending utopia, borne from technological progress.

Bit off topic, but I typically get carried away once I get on my soapbox.

I think you have some excellent points, but it is important to note that we are not just putting 'different people' in charge, we are changing the framework by which money creation and financial transactions occur.  I believe changing a framework càn have profound consequences.

By the way, theoretically, I would say that human nature does evolve, just very very very slowly, and only after certain "evolutionary incentives" change.

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